Behemoth Frontman Nergal Facing Prison Time Over Bible Tearing Incident In Poland
Band Photo: Behemoth (?)
Gazetaprawna.pl has reported front man Nergal (Adam Darski) of Polish death metal band Behemoth has officially been charged with insulting the Roman Catholic Church, which is a crime in Poland that carries a penalty of up to two years in prison. The charge stems from an incident in 2007 when Nergal tore a bible apart on stage and referenced the church as being a murderous cult. A video of the concert that caused the charge can be viewed below. Nergal has stated that tearing apart the Bible was part of his artistic work and was not meant to offend religious sensibilities. More details on the case will be announced as they are made available.
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360 Comments on "Nergal Facing Prison Time Over Bible Tearing"
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hell...even sinead knew you can't get away with insulting Rome anywhere except the free and mighty usa
the nergal dude picked the wrong place to express his 'artistic' persuasions...and, how fvcking cliche can ya get??
hardly worth any criminal charge whatsoever...pretty fvcking juvenile, really
If Nergal goes to jail for that...it would just take the cake as the stupidest f***ing thing ever. You can't lock up Behemoths main man for saying "f*** religion". sh** like this is why i hate organized religion, you can't send a man to jail because he doesn't share you opinion and worship the same god that you do.
i highly doubt he will go to prison. The Polish government and the Roman Catholic church have been going after him for years and have not succeeded. The only thing I dont understand is as intelligent as Mr. Darski is he probably should have known that tearing a bible may have given them the ammo they needed to finally bring charges against him that stick.....Oh well, Behemoth rules
i think behemoth itself is more important to the world than the entire nation of poland. i cant think of one thing that comes from poland that is as popular in the U.S. as behemoth, besides another metal band (vader, decapitated blah blah f***ing blah) varg should of been workin the churches in poland instead of norway. LONG LIVE BEHEMOTH!
People, don't talk s***t about country you've never visited and many of you couldn't even localize on a map...
Who the hell are you to say if it's right or wrong for him being sewed? That's the democration,isn't it? Somebody is being ofended then he goes to the court with it.
For your information: more than 80% of Poles are declared catolics. Adam was aware of the consequence and took a shot coz he knew that would create a scandal that will give his band more fame. And you guys shouldn't be worried, this acusation it's not a biggie, he won't go to the jail, probably he will just be forced to pay some symbolic compensation for a catolic charity found, not a big deal isn't it?
lot's of people do the same thing and get away with it. Poland had a Pope before this Pope but so what, it's just another country if you ask me. I can think of 4 or 5 other bands who did this before. I gues just Poland has more issues or whatever. Someone needs to tell Poland that Catholic priests have been raping same sex kids and one in a while even girls at the age of 14 etc. for a very very long time and only recently did anything at all happen to even address THAT problem. Not to mention daily rules and regulations get broken all the time by so-called christians commandments etc etc. Double standards triple standards, whatever! It's stupid over ripping up some stupid book!
IRISH METAL!!! Sup fvcker? Where you been?
BTW #19: I believe the word you were looking for was LOCATE. Not localize. LMFAO. Sewed? Why would anyone sew Nergal? Has he fallen apart? I thought Nergal ripped the bible? Did Nergal get ripped? lol. Please tell me you're Polish and that english is NOT your first language so that I may cut you some slack.
#21:Yep, I'm Polish. Yep, my english definetly needs some improvement i assure you that i'm working on it. But netherless you understood what i meant to say, didn't you?;)
The fact that Nergal has been charged is because he broke the law and that's final. I just don't understand why people here on this site are so shocked with this fact.
For me a bigger problem in Poland is the fact that in the past few years some metal gigs of good polish bands where banned by local autorities for religiuos issues. That's what i call a problem man... fortunately it involves just two polish citys but still it just should not happen in a democratic country. I herad that the same story happened here in US during The Faceless tour with meshuggah, is it true??
To the person who is defending Polish law. Yes, it is the law and if he didn't want to get arrested then sure, he shouldn't have done it. What I'm saying is I really don't like how a Country can have that law because I enjoy having my freedom of Religion. I'm atheist personally and while I accept all religions, I love how if I wanted to rip a bible and wipe my a** with it, I could because that's freedom of religion.
metalrox555: I guess you have a different definition of freedom;) I don't care if it's a Bible or Tora or Koran, i just don't like when somebody is offending people. The same way I don't like the brainwash that the Church is doing and the way it's trying to involve in politics..
I just think that music should not be involved in any discussions of that sort. What Adam did was stupid.
While I do think the law is a bit silly, as a sovereign nation it's Poland's right to have this kind of legislation as long as it doesn't infringe on basic human rights. Surely he knew what he was doing was against the law there. If you violate a law, you face penalties.
I do think there's a degree of irony among metal forums- it's so easy to lash out against other people's beliefs, particularly religion, but when a favored band or artist is in someway insulted or harassed, everybody's up in arms.
This sucks. Poland has to get over this catholic crap! It is just a book, there are plenty more in this world. Nergal was just expressing his thoughts on how he felt. We all do it everyday. I seriously can not wait for the day Catholic, Christians, Mormons, etc. all fall. That day will be a day of bliss indeed. Best of luck goes out to Nergal!
hahahha wtf is that sh** he insulted the church is that a joke???if i remember correct 4 days ago a big head in vatican got arrested for gay affairs and i sure they are many more that molesting kids isnt that a bigger crime????? f*ck the church F*ck Religion Get a life!!! bahemoth next time burn a cross in the middle of St Peter
I'm lurkin about Blind ;)
Post infrequently, cuz I get sucked in and spend too much time, but I'm always here for my news.
Miss the debates though. Just not the same since the forums got up and running.
To the guys sayin he broke a law, and was in full knowledge of doing so, it's a fairly stupid law. Some are made to be challenged. That said, it's been going pretty civil so far in this thread :)
Having never heard of previous incidents of the sort, one might think this sort of religious zeal is only observed in places like the middle east where freedom of speech and the like are not observed. It isn't too hard to see why this sort of behavior might be a surprise to many people coming from a European country if one didn't already know about the laws and over-sensitivities there.
The other part of the outcry is over the idea that religion is untouchable and a country would support this. Not so far away, you've got a cartoonist mocking Islam and outcry that he was getting death threats. Then you have this in Poland.
If he was tearing up a Guetenberg or the Book of Kells that would be one thing-- that would actually be destroying something of artistic and historic value, whatever one thinks of the ideas expressed within.
Tearing up a copy of a mass-produced book, on the other hand, is a purely symbolic act. I know I'm preaching to the choir (ugh, no pun/irony intended) to rant here about why that should not be illegal, but gah.
Though it wouldn't surprise me if the wingnuts managed to get laws like this passed in the U.S. in the not-to-distant-future. They seem determined to turn this place into a theocracy.
once when Behemoth played outdoors @ the Pound in S.F. (club no longer exists) 1 of the drummer's cymbal stands partially fell over, not only did he not miss a (blast)beat he even kept on slammin it! Considering recent vatican sex scandal hopefully this will blowover soon. Looking forward to seeing Behemoth again!
Ripping a bible is an artistic expression?
Its an attention seeker, a ratings catch, a way to boost popularity, bla bla bla...artistic expression, my azz...he must think the people of poland are gonna buy that....you dont like it nergal, migrate somewhere else...
He has that big of balls to rip a bible, why doesnt he rip up the koran?...No matter what country your in it ll get press, probably more so because muslims may be more sensitive to that kind of act rather that christians/roman cathlolics......
It was a little kid stunt, meant nothing, showed nothing......that s the law,like it or not, he knew, you play you play.....
jeez...folk get so worked up over this kind of scheiss...but then, what's the predominant demographic here, 17...18?
look, this kind of rhetoric has been going on for eons...there's nothing new to be witnessed here, its been expressed by BOTH sides many times over
as someone above alludes; the 'bible' is a massed produced document of whatever worth it may be to its reader...in this respect, any individual copy of its general ilk is hardly a sacred 'relic' at all, and could be rightly considered 'expressionistic fodder' ANYWHERE...much as the goddamned shopping coupon mailings we receive weekly here...you can save yer damn dime, wipe yer backside, start the evening fire...it DOESN'T fvcking matter!
this is archaism at its ugly worst...an oppressive national enforcement of the Vatican's outdated standard, and some poor ol punk who thought he'd really give 'em the middle finger...
NO, that ain't never been done before :)
and i'll also add, Polska is a fvcking COOL place to check out...never lived there, but its beautiful and really quite amazing, and the people were great
Guys, I checked that information more precisely in polish media. He was charged for two things. 1: Bible tearing in a public appearance. 2: For the song "Chwala Mordercom Wojciecha" where he makes hommage to some polish barbarian nation from X century who killed st.Wojciech.
St.Wojciech is the patron saint of Poland and a symbol of martyrology. And Adam wasn't charged by Roman Catholic Church itself. He was charged by four citizens who saw the movie on youtube and concerned it as offensive.
Deathbringer: From you I would expect some more knowledge and openminded opinion. Compairing this situation in Poland to that with Dutch cartoon of Mahomet you showed ignorance,unawareness, which is btw, unfortunately a strong stereotype describing american nation here in Europe. I always tried to fight against this stereotype but this discussion here really made my confused.
There is a sightly difference between lawsuit and some massive demonstrations all over Europe with burned flags of Danemark and death sentences sent to the cartoonist.
If you don't see the difference, then I don't know if there is anything more to say from my part.
It's just sad.
Cynic: thanks for the info. I agree with your allusion - I think Adam planned it all. Great publicity indeed.
i would imagine that the RCC oughtta be more concerned with priests buttf***ing altarboys than some Metal dude expressing his freedom of expression. it is ridiculous. Catholicism is a f***ing joke, anyways. thats what the hell i want at church, some dude in a goofy looking hat preaching in Latin to people who can't even understand what these idiots are saying. next thing you know, they'll be dragging Peter (Vader) before the Authorities for hanging himself on a cross in their latest Video.it's sad the youth of such a great country have to live under the thumb of Miscreants and Pedophiles hiding behing the robes of this so called"god incarnate on earth". dragging these so-called religious leaders into the streets and ripping them to pieces would be a step in the right direction.
Well deathmetalPL, I was not comparing the two situations directly and hold no such beliefs, so you can't really comment on how open minded I am. I was only offering two different incidents based on religion and contrasting the reactions to them based around the central premise of free speech. This was done in an effort to demonstrate why some people might be in shock about Nergal's situation and the ridiculous laws in Poland.
I, for one, am not in shock because this isn't the first time something like this has happened, but as someone who believes in free speech I cannot help to think it's utterly retarded. That's where I stand on the matter. I realize many countries have their own areas of oversensitivity (e.g. Germany on violence in movies and games), but the end results are typically so overreaching they are or border on ridiculous.
deathbringer: now you're talking with sense, still there were extremely different situations. Of course, both related with religion context but trully, it just can't be compared, Poland guaranties everyone to express his beliefs as long as he/she's not offending anyone. Of course, there are a lot of dumbass blinded by religion who are seeing enemies everywhere but i guess the same thing happen in every european country, f.ex. France(conflicts with the muslim minority).
I just wanted to say that the majority of people here are overreacting. The problem isn't that Adam was charged. The problem is that he gave arguments to some religious fanatics to say that metal music is bad for the society and that will affect polish underground for sure, in past years some gigs were banned and probably after this sh** it will happen again.
You say that there are some ridiculous laws in Poland. Well the same way I can say that some of your laws are stupid. You're in a country where someone can be charged for just for syaing that someone is black. Which is a fact, isn't it? How anyone normal could find that kind of statement as something offensive?
I'm p***ed at Adam because this whole situation affects badly the music. I believe in a music free from ideology and religion and he cynically mix this things together for his own purpose. And that's low.
deathmetalPL: Slack shall be cut, so don't worry about your english skills. lol. I understand where you're comming from regarding expressing yourself without hurting someone else, but seriously... Who got hurt in this incident? Nobody. Someone got offended, not hurt and for that I don't believe anyone should be prosecuted or "charged" with anything. It's very simple. If you know it's going to offend you (not you personally), why did you look it up on youtube? You'll find people in the metal community are very touchy about stuff like this because it happens too often in our genre, whereas artists in other genres are free to do whatever the hell they please without any reprocussions.
There's plenty of ridiculous stuff here (what you said isn't true though), but it doesn't make "non offesnse" laws any less so. How can you possible have freedom of speech and not offend anyone at the same time? You can pretty much say what you want in the US except that you want to kill the president. Even if you're not charged with a crime, you're still accountable for your words though (like if your employer wants to fire you because you make racist statements).
no reason to panic, just because he is being prosecuted doesn't mean he is going to jail, he won the first case ,than the other guy appealed so now nergal gonna win again anyway , polish people are not that stupid
plus nergal is a celebrity now in Poland due to his affair with a polish singer/model DODA so doubt they will do anything to him
WTF!?!? Is this the 21st century or the 16th? The right to free expression should be a given in this day and age. I feel bad for the Poles to live under such repression. I agree that Nergal probably did this strategically, but that does not excuse the reaction ( or over-reaction) of the Judaical system there. I did not realize what a strangle hold the Catholic Church has on that country. I also realize America has it's problems, but I could do a lot worse in public then tear up a bible and there would be no consequences. As far as the offense laws go in Poland, I find The Jonas Brothers (and the Disney Company) to be EXTREMELY offensive, does this mean I could have them banned, or better yet imprisoned, if I could find 3 other people to go along with me?
France is apparently considering offensive laws as well, like speeding tickets.
Metalrox555: as has been said, this isn't a freedom of religion issue, it's a freedom of speech issue. Catholics can still exist in Poland. This matter is about whether or not they can be criticized.
As far as Nergal's comment about not wanting to offend religious sensibilities: I think he's delusional but I believe his intent was to make a statement about the commercial and political power of the Catholic Church, not its theology, hence the tearing of its central, mass-produced book.
Believe me, I don't like offending people either. I try to not do it myself, I never insult things like religion (Even though I disagree with it) or gay people, or retarded people, etc.. I just think that it shouldn't be against the law because I myself am a huge fan of separation of church and state (Although the US could work on it a little).
I think it's a combination of freedom of speech and freedom of religion issues DeathInEye. Because the way I see it is if a gay person was insulted there it would be no big deal, but make it a religious issue and the sh*t hits the fan. But I definitely agree that it's both.
Oh, and to Hellrat: IMO, your comment about people here being 17,18 is just ignorant. Yes, I'm 18 but I think I've made a pretty good case for my views and if you look at history, a lot of the reasons things that were unjust were ever changed were because of college students. Look at the civil rights movement and you will see a lot of it was done by college students who knew what was going on was ignorant.
In the States, if a gay were insulted, it would be a huge issue. There's a supreme court debate about whether or not religious fanatics can protest against gay soldiers at their funerals (maybe they've decided, I haven't paid much attention to the news lately). Different issue anyway. This about whether or not an artist, a public figure, can openly criticize the Catholic Church durring a performance, an aspect of his art. This is not about whether the Catholic Church should be allowed to exist and practice its theology.
MR555--while its true that i really don't know much about anything whatsoever, the comment to which you refer is not meant as a slight on the youth...don't take it as such.
the kids are alright---sometimes just get a little excited
keep on truckin' young feller ;)
This is pretty jokes. If you're religious I understand why you would be offended, but there are bigger problems in the world, and wtf are you doing listening to Behemoth if you're religious anyways?
I wouldn't worry about jail time I'm sure this will all blow over.
in 2007 only one person in poland was offended (there had to be at least two people offended so that the issue could be considered and some actions taken).
some time passed. few politicians gathered and thought they would be more 'popular' (elections and stuff) if they did something good for the poles. unfortunately, it was nergal they picked and sued. considering the fact that the majority of poles are christians and religion = politics, it's obvious why they did it. it's all about votes.
This is why nations should have complete seperation of chruch and state. I mean really..."insulting the roman catholic church" is a crime? If I lived in Poland it looks like I would be serving a life sentence. I figure this is all going to be forgotten about and Nergal will just keep on touring and releasing epic music as he always has (also, i might expect him to a little something extra next time he plays a show in Poland).
it seems that a lot of people think that he just did this at the one show. He does this at a lot of the shows in America and around the world. The problem was that he's a polish citizen and did it. This same thing happened to Gorgoroth back in 2004 with their DVD Gorgoroth: Black Mass Over Krakow DVD. It was confiscated by the police and they were almost put in jail. It's bullsh** to put someone in prison because they just said something that you don't like
guys i am polish and i hate it that nergal is being prosecuted because he teared the bible, but what you have to understand that if it wasn't for the catholic church we would probably be still under comunist goverment if not a part of soviet union,that is why the church is so strong in my country and if it wasn't for the church there would be no vader,behemoth or decapitatded, furthermore there might have never been independence in poland,czech republic,slovakia,lithuania,ukraine,germany and few others.
In the eyes of the Catholic Church - Homosexual child rape, OK - The Nazi Party,OK, Subjugation of women,OK- Making birth control illegal,OK Ripping a work of fiction.PUNISHABLE BY PRISON! (alright maybe not the church,but the Polish govt....but you get the idea).
what everyone fails to realize is that rome and the Bible have nothing in common. the roman catholic church isn't a Biblical church - rather, ANTI Biblical ! therefore, i understand some peoples frustrations towards the catholic system - but holding The Holy Scriptures responsible for their actions is unwarranted.
There's nothing more amusing than watching members of the same overall superstitious cult (who all follow the exact same book no less!) talk about how other members of that cult in different denominations aren't following the book properly.
I think you've missed the point, the messenger, about why Nergal was tearing up the Bible. While he was in fact specifically referencing the Catholic Church, I'm fairly certain Behemoth is against all sects that follow the Bible. Whether any given person is Catholic, Protestant, Baptist, Charismatic, Apostolic Pentacostal, or any other denomination - the Bible still tells you to stone your kids to death, murder the next witch you come across, and forbids you from eating shrimp. That last one alone makes it worth tearing up.
Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go blast some Behemoth, eat some shrimp, and not murder some witches.
LOL at xFiruath's comment, but i disagree... its the christians that are wrong and not the bible... i never saw anything about stoning people to death or burning witches in the bible, but as we all know it has been done...
The last part of the article = bullsh** ; i mean come on!! part of his artistic work? he WAS offending christianity and i wish he had the balls to say it... but he definitely doesnt deserve to go to jail...
Decapitator94: For reference, the bit about stoning your kids to death can be found in Deuteronomy 21:18 - 21 and the bit about killing witches is at Exodus 22:18 (if that sounds familiar its because its just a few chapters down from the Ten Commandments).
I agree about him definitely trying to piss off Christianity, but I'm guessing he has to say that that wasn't his intention to try to get out of jail. It's an unjust law, and I don't feel bad about him lying his a$$ off to get out of punishment over it.
Actually, it surprises me when I see people target Catholics when then criticize Christianity, since here in the States, the Catholics are one of the saner, more reasonable denominations (relatively speaking, of course). It's the various non-denominationalists and Fundamentalist denominations that shoot people, fight more strongly against equal rights and equal treatment under law, and try harder to corrupt the legal system into a medieval-style theocracy.
These same Christianist theocratic loonies are also the strongest anti-Catholic voice in the US, calling the Pope the anti-christ, and saying that Catholosism in a Satanic cult. So picking on the Catholics is siding with the even more frightening Christianists.
It's a very different situation in Poland, I know. Nergal hasn't had to deal with the kind of people who hand out Chick Tracts and want to bring about the end of the world. (I wish they'd hurry up and have their d@mn Rapture already, so that the rest of us Left Behind's can go about trying to do what we can for THIS world without their interference.)
Naming what's wrong with the Catholic Church in this debate doesn't make much sense, because Vatican Law isn't the issue, its Polish Law. It was just a Catholic Bible. Some countries limit freedom of speech a little more than America, and there are some decent arguments that that is a good idea. Let's say I insult the Prophet Muhammed in an image or in text, and publish it. Should I have the right to? Sure. But if it is reasonable to think that an angry muslim will try to kill me (and although I am not trying to make a generalization about muslims, it is somewhat reasonable), I am not just endangering myself, I am endangering my family, my friends, and my coworkers. Do I have the right to do that? Not at all. In such a case, it wouldn't be fair to say "free speech is only limited in reference to insulting Islam".
xFiruath: Yes, scripture states those things. And those texts are jewish. The Jews believe that the written text is only half of the scripture, and there is an oral component. Almost 2000 years ago, that oral component, as well as commentary on it and metacommentary, was written down for fear of it being lost to Roman persecution. This text is called the Talmud, and in it, it states that the death penalty was there to illustrate the severity of the crime, and the punishment was only used in the most extreme of cases. In reference to stoning your children, the Talmud states the the punishment was never used at all. As burning witches only an idiot would actually get burned. To qualify for the penalty, you had to be caught in the act, be warned, acknowledge the warning, and continue the crime in front of witnesses. Even then, you might not get death. One opinion recorded in the Talmud states, "A court that gives the death penalty once in 50 years is a murderous court."
So, we are talking primarily about Christians, namely Catholics. Please leave my people and their scripture out of it. You don't know anything about it.
Boy these posts are just getting better and better, now we re stereotyping the entire christian/cathloic faith as cults, ..........unreal...
You got good and bad apples in every bunch, exploiting the negative most of the time usually leads people to think, "ya, they re all screwed up"...it s shallow thinking to put a label on an entire religion, race, creed or culture, just because a few wackjobs do something unprecidented or juvenile but unfortunantly in todays society it happends far too often.
Surprised it took the messenger this long to comment on this topic, i figured he/she would have been in the top 10 of posts....
happysatan: I think you're interpreting information to fit your desired conclusion. B.C. times and even immediate post-Christ times were not that civilized.
While Nergal obviously has issues with Christianity, I really don't think he was making a theological statement. Tearing a bible does this inadvertantly, yes, but I don't believe it was Nergal's main intention, as he states. I still maintain that Nergal's priority in this matter was to make a statement about the commercial and drone mindset status of the Catholic Church, which in this instance are not theological matters. I know it's hard to swallow the idea that Nergal mightn't be doing this, but try, at least.
Also, this argument over the bible...Wtf? The Catholic bible is the definitive bible from which all other Christian bibles are derived. This is pointless. Certain denominations read it with different standard interpretations, but it's still the Bible. You rip "the Catholic bible," you rip the Christian bible.
I'm not even sure why the Jewish and Islamic scriptures have been brought up.
You know something, this is amusingly sad...just to know that there is a law for insulting the Roman Catholic Church...
What if I went to Poland, became a citizen and decided to create my own religion and then publish it... then someone buys it and rips it....should that person be punished? Just think about, you bought it ...its now in your own hands, don't you have the freedom to do whatever you want with it?
Its your property...and what if Adam decided that he didn't want to get video taped taking pages out of the bible? Would that person get charged with punishment? Or get rewarded?... A bible that holds writings of a follower...where is the truth in this? Thank "god" right?!.
It's amusing to see xtians try to defend the indefensable.If you believe your bible (which I don't), God himself ordered the slaughter of innocent men,women and children...hundreds of thousands of them. And don't give me the "he works in mysterious ways" bulls***. The god of the bible is the single most immoral character in all of fiction. The book should be ripped up.
I get the basic idea of what people are saying here. I, personally, feel you should not deface the Bible. I do also understand the "freedom of speech" everybody keeps bringing up. Let me say this, speech might not be as free in Poland as it is in America. If you are in a different country you have to respect their rights and laws no matter how crazy they may be. If you think about it, several states in America have some crazy laws, they are just not in-forced. I may be way off base but, it's just my two cents.
Yup, if I DID believe in the God described in the Bible, I certainly wouldn't worship it. Capriciously amoral and vindictively cruel. And demanding that people grovel at it's feet in fear (hence the expression "God-fearing", as though living in fear were something to strive for).
The literalists are a batsh** crazy Armageddon cult. The non-literalists interpret the hell out of the Bible until they are claiming is says things completely different than what it says, yet still insist it's Holy Scripture. Their interpretations sometimes contain wisdom, but to claim it comes from the Bible requires contortions that would make circus acrobats jealous.
It's a book. It describes what a random tribe of desert nomads believed thousands of years ago, and what their laws were. It's interesting from an anthropological and archaeological standpoint, as is any other document that age. It is NOT a blueprint for living, unless you consider the edict to "kill every man, woman, and child, and take this land for yourself" to be holy words to live by.
Note my "Yup" was in response to #104; The following post appeared while I was typing so I hadn't seen it yet.
In response to #105: even if we accept for the sake of argument that one shouldn't deface the Bible, it does not automatically follow that it should be a crime with a prison sentence attached. There are plenty of things that I think people shouldn't do that I don't think should be illegal.
And Nergal wasn't "in a different country" and not respecting foreign laws. In case you missed the memo, he's Polish.
#104, I agree and disagree. What I don't agree with is that it should be ripped up. The teachings of Christ are some of the best words ever written. However, outside of Christs teachings you have a mass of mis-interpreted jargon that in most cases has been used to manipulate and enslave lots of good hearted sheeple....errr people. Do I believe Christ was a real man? I certainly do. Do I believe in what he stood for? I sure do. Do I believe in the mass manipulation of people in the name of this man? I sure as hell do NOT. #106 put it nicely with the remark of "god-fearing". That's what it comes down to. Enslavement through the fear of what will happen to you if you disobey. They took a good core of moral standards and built it up with all sorts of self-fulfilling prophecy and fairy tales. Jesus never claimed to be god allmighty, but a son of god. He said we are all sons of god. Infact if you actually read the bible he states that any man can tap into and posess the powers he displayed. There's a reason hindu's wear a dot on their forehead and a reason Buddhists do too. It represents the third eye (pineal gland), or in other words your spiritual gateway to intelligent infinity. God isn't external, it's in all of us. heh, there's my $0.02 for the day.
Yup. The Catholic Church (or Catholics in general) should look to it's shuffling around of priests accused of pedophillia to protect them from prosecution (and give them fresh victims in the process) before it complains about one of millions of identical copies of a mass-produced book being torn up.
That whole remove-the-log-from-your-own-eye-before-taking-the-speck-from-your-brother's-eye thing.
(And when called on their handling of the abuse cases, they tried to pass the blame again by trying to make it about homosexuality, when there were plenty of female victims as well. They just didn't get as much press. It's not about orientation, it's about freakin' child abuse. The respective genders of those involved are irrelevant.)
here is the bottom line. christians, non-christians, you can both read this. just for knowings sake, i am an athiest.
the reason that angry anti-religious groups exsist is because you can not prove faith, and you try to over and over again. faith is something that exists in your head, and it can be practiced with others. but when you see it in law, as something that everyone has no choice but to accept, people get angry.
and why? because in all honesty, it's not everyones law. it's your law. if a christian or a roman catholic rips up a bible in a church, feel free to enact punishment as you see fit, as long as it abides by state law. but if you see someone ripping a bible on the street, or in a stage, they have the right to do so. you can persecute them because they disagree with you.
and the old testament says that if you tattoo your body you go to hell and if you have sex outside of your marriage you go to hell unlerss you had sex with your slave then it is ok heh hard to understand religion
for me it's best summed up by celtic frosts aalbum cover to "to mega therion" where satan uses the christ on the cross as a slingshot and he is aiming at you, sometimes good things are being used/manipulated to cause harm/evil
Hi xFiruath - it's really important that you understand the difference between Old Testament and New Testament - between Law and Grace. The apostle Paul stresses this point in Galations and in Romans. God's law (Torah) is holy and just (Rom.7:12). God can demand nothing less than perfection for He is a Holy God (Mat.5:20,48). The law was given to show us our sin (Rom.7:7) Therefore, by God's standards we ALL fall short - no one is excluded (Rom.3:23, 5:12) . Now this is VERY important and you NEED to understand this - The law condemns EVERYONE - not just disobedient children and witches - you must take the Torah as a whole. So what is the lesson here ? the answer is found in Galations 3:22-25 (please read). You see - the severity of the Old Testament law condemns the whole human race - so our ''impotency'' to conform perfectly to God's Holy standard is in itself a revelation that God HIMSELF must intercede on our behalf. That's why Paul said - ''O wretched man that i am ! WHO shall deliver me from this body of death ? '' What was his answer ? - '' I thank God THROUGH Jesus Christ our Lord....'' (Rom.7:24,25a). Only through Christ can a person be redeemed from the curse of the law (Gal.3:13). So, to conclude - the severity of the law (Torah) was to show us our NEED for Messiah - Jesus Christ - the Lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world (Colosians 2:14-17, John 1:29 please read) amen.
Post 120, nicely written and all, but it's just putting a spin on the bible. You can't pick and choose what you believe in it, no matter what prophets say, since they're just men, and by their very nature men are fallable.
Using Jesus and baptism as a get-out clause for everything is redundant and defeats the purpose of the threat of punishment. No matter how bad you are, you can be redeemed. That's an insult to anyone touched by "evil" and is such a messed up view that it's a joke.
Says somewhere only 144000 people get into heaven in the old testament (12K from the 12 tribes) but in revelations it says that people will be judged through the book of life. Which is right, and if the latter, 144K aint very much.
Either you take it as fact (fundies) or see it as a collection of (sometimes morally reprehensible) moral stories. Even those who do take it as fact ignore whatever parts they like. A book that sets down laws that are simple right and wrong isn't needed, and especially not with the ridiculous padding that surrounds those stories.
and I came by to laugh at the spray of regurgitation on here....hell, a regular bunch o 'philosiphizers', with and a couple zealots thrown in for good measure...
seriously....silly business, funny stuff
now I gotta git...just got news that there are some VERY important antiquated passages that i NEED to go read RIGHT NOW ...its evidently REALLY fvcking imperative
Dude, I don't believe in some "all powerful man in the sky" either, but come on. Just play the damn music and let people believe what they want. It ain't christians going around killing innocent people these days, it's that cult in the middle east and I don't see any bands attacking that religion. Rip the koran up on stage and denounce islam and then maybe you'll look like you have a set of balls. Otherwise, attacking christians nowadays is like breathing. You ain't tough doing it. Badass song though.
Hi IrishMetal - you brought up a few points that beg for an answer. 1 - As evangelical christians - we don't pick n choose what we want to believe but rather we let the Scriptures interpret itself. Forsure man is fallable - the Bible is clear on this point - but God isn't - even though He uses fallable men to accomplish His purposes - hence, we believe in the divine inspiration of scriptures (2 Peter 1:20,21 please read).
2 - Yes, Jesus is the only way (John 3:36, 14:6) but to reduce Him to a 'get out' clause is to minimize what God has truly done for us (John 3:16, Rom.5:8, 6:23)....but no where in scripture does it say that water baptism saves or contributes to our salvation. That is pure catholicism and antiscriptural. One of the theives crucified with Jesus comes to mind (Luke 23:39-43 please read). This man couldn't get baptised or do any goodwork because he was also nailed to a cross (Galations 2:16) - Hence, We sing Amazing grace (Ephesians 2:8,9).
3 - 144,000 - remember, like you said - we are not to pick n choose what we believe - and this is VERY important - therefore, you must READ the whole context of the passage where this is mentionned as well as comparing scripture with scripture - because the Bible is self interpreting. Read Revelations 7 - you will instantly notice that the 144,000 is in reference to jewish men specially chosen by God for a specific task during the 'endtimes' - therefore, this scripture still has YET to be fulfilled. So, to answer your question as to how many people will go to heaven ? The scripture is quite clear on this - read Rev.5:9. Many people draw wrong conclusions when they take scripture out of context. If we would take the time to read the Bible as a whole and to let it interpret itself - many of these wrong conclusions will disappear :-)
"(March 14) -- As sex abuse scandals rock the Vatican, the results of an investigation into a rich, ultra-conservative and secretive Roman Catholic order founded by a priest accused of pedophilia and incest are due to be filed in Rome tomorrow.
"Maciel was a sexual criminal of epic proportions who gained the trust of John Paul II and created a movement that is as close to a cult as anything we've seen in the church," said author Jason Berry, one of two reporters who broke the Maciel story in 1997 and who directed a 2008 documentary about the priest called "Vows of Silence."
"But he got away with it for years and still in a sense he's getting away with it."
In 1997, nine former high-ranking seminarians accused Maciel, who died in 2008, of sexually abusing them when they were boys training for the priesthood. Last year, it was discovered Maciel had an illegitimate daughter born in 1986 in Spain. Two Mexican men who say they are Maciel's sons claim he also sexually abused them as children.
Even when the former seminarians went public in 1997 about Maciel's sexual abuse and filed a formal complaint with the Vatican, the church at first did nothing while the Legion and other high-profile conservative Catholics called them liars.
"He created a structure that allowed sexual abuse, financial fraud and spiritual improprieties to go completely unchecked,"
"The Legion by its very nature spawns people who lead double lives," said Lennon. "Maciel was certainly not the only hypocrite in the Legion but he was definitely the worst one." To read the rest :http://www.aolnews.com/world/article/secretive-catholic-order-founded-by-accused-pedophile-under-fire/19398262?icid=main|aim|dl1|link3|http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aolnews.com%2Fworld%2Farticle%2Fsecretive-catholic-order-founded-by-accused-pedophile-under-fire%2F19398262
"(March 14) -- As sex abuse scandals rock the Vatican, the results of an investigation into a rich, ultra-conservative and secretive Roman Catholic order founded by a priest accused of pedophilia and incest are due to be filed in Rome tomorrow."
"Maciel was a sexual criminal of epic proportions who gained the trust of John Paul II and created a movement that is as close to a cult as anything we've seen in the church," said author Jason Berry, one of two reporters who broke the Maciel story in 1997 and who directed a 2008 documentary about the priest called "Vows of Silence."
"But he got away with it for years and still in a sense he's getting away with it."
"In 1997, nine former high-ranking seminarians accused Maciel, who died in 2008, of sexually abusing them when they were boys training for the priesthood. Last year, it was discovered Maciel had an illegitimate daughter born in 1986 in Spain. Two Mexican men who say they are Maciel's sons claim he also sexually abused them as children."
"Even when the former seminarians went public in 1997 about Maciel's sexual abuse and filed a formal complaint with the Vatican, the church at first did nothing while the Legion and other high-profile conservative Catholics called them liars."
"He created a structure that allowed sexual abuse, financial fraud and spiritual improprieties to go completely unchecked,"
"The Legion by its very nature spawns people who lead double lives," said Lennon. "Maciel was certainly not the only hypocrite in the Legion but he was definitely the worst one."
Jack's mother was very angry when he returned home with three magic beans so she threw them out of the window. Jack was amazed when he woke up because a gigantic beanstalk was outside!
And all the other ducklings were astounded because the ugliest one of the bunch had returned, no longer as the ugly duckling they knew her as, but as a beautiful swan.
"Why Grandma, what big eyes you have!" exclaimed Little Red Riding Hood.
"All the better to see you with my dear!"
Sorry everyone, I didn't want TheMessenger to be the only one here posting excerpts from childrens stories!
no kidding about the godamned fairy tales...serious fvcking sh!t right there
hell, my own dad used to brainwash me as child with corrupt stanza's of his own interpretation:
....little miss muffet sat on her tuffet
eating her curds and whey
well, along came a spider and bit her on the a$s
and ruined her whole fvckin day
and I really fvckin believe, goddamn it! YOU all should too, its for yer fvckin SOUL man
The Roman Catholic Church is the longest running criminal empire in the history of the world. Bunch of worthless, sanctamonious f*cking maggots. I'd personally love to pile up every copy of the "good book", set it ablaze and watch them choke on the ashes. Spiritual pipe-dreams are for the credulous and weak. All I can say in response is "Nergal Please"....heehee, couldn't resist....
One quiet sunday, the Pope decided to do a crossword. After a short while and said to a nearby man of the church, "Cardinal, can you think of a word for a woman ending in 'unt'?" The cardinal paused and said, "Ah! Aunt!"
"Of course!" said the Pope. "... got an eraser?"
C'mon, this is rediculous. Having to serve jail time for tearing up the stupid book? Screw the Roman Catholic Church, they have no room to pass this sort of judgement.
I saw Behemoth in San Francisco on their Apostasy tour, and Nergal did the same thing there. Pretty epic show from them that night.
now this really is sh**.. doesnt the country's constitution protect him from getting penalized for that? how the hell can insulting the roman catholic church be a crime in a country? does the state patronize christianity or summin? coz i thought most countries were secular... and anyway, as long as anybody in the concert is not offended and dont press charges i dont understand how the court can act off its own accord...
133 Mr Messenger
"Peter replied, 'Each of you must turn from your sins and turn to God, and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. Then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.' Those who believed what Peter said were baptized and added to the church--about three thousand in all.” Acts 2:38, 41
Anyone can find quotations in the bible to support just about any view. Even if everyone else knows it as completely wrong, it can still be warped and used for evil.
I stand by my statement that the bible can be used as a book of moral stories, although some are questionable (Especially Joshua's actions as the conqueror) but there is a lot in it that just doesn't make sense any more.
Lol at the rest of you hoors posting fairytales :P
Hi IrishMetal, Indeed water baptism is one of the 2 christian ordinances (the other being the Lord's supper) that was commanded by the Lord Jesus - but you must take the SUM of the biblical texts - hermeneutics is a valid science. You will notice that in the New Testament there are two baptisms - 1 - water baptism 2 - Spirit baptism (John 1:33, 1Cor.12:13).
Without going way too deep in a Theological discussion - let me just make 2 points : 1st - Does water baptism wash away our sins ? The Bible says NO - it is the Blood of Christ that purifies us through faith ( Rom.5:8,9 , 1John 1:7, etc....)
2nd - is it imperative that one must be baptized in order to enter into paradise ? The answer is NO - remember the dying theif on the cross (Luke 23:39-43). If water baptism was necessary for his salvation - then Jesus couldn't have promised him paradise.
Therefore, to conclude - the scriptures make it clear that putting your faith in Christ and His blood shed on calvary's cross (with genuine repentance ) will save you. Hebrews 11:6 states ''with FAITH it is impossible to please God'' .....though don't get me wrong, i'm not minimizing the importance of water baptism - which is an OUTWARD symbol testifying to an INNER truth which is the Regeneration performed by the Holy Spirit in our souls - bringing us into the body of Christ by faith (Galations 3:26,27 , Titus 3:5 PLEASE READ). Christ commanded us to be baptized but it remains a symbol - much like a wedding ring which symbolizes the loving union of a man and his bride. It in not the ring that is the source or cause of this love - but rather symbolic of it. Hence, Ephesians 5:24-33 please read.
This is a late response, but what do I care. I'm not here to prove any type of faith, I don't care what anyone believes.
However, DeathInEye, your ignorance is great, albeit sadly normal. It is not a educated view to say "nobody was that civilized" 2000 years ago. Freedom of religion, speech, and a hatred of capital punishment are all ancient ideas. You just think they aren't because they never approached some kind of more mainstream ideology until recently. Shut your mouth and take a class more in depth than Ancient History 101. Stop making assertions based on cliches. Read a book.
If you want evidence that this was how the death penalty was dealt with, try Talmud tractate Sanhedrin. I understated how difficult it is to get the death penalty in Jewish law. Tractate Makkos 1:10 concludes that no court should give capital punishment once in 70 years (whoops, not 50).
So, no xFiruath. I don't know what christians think, but the people that actually produced the text you quoted didn't actually demand that a defiant child be stoned, seeing as how the text is only half the story. The punishment for a defiant child is written to illustrate that defiance against the source of your life is like asking for death. And of course, abusive parents were considered an exception. Even if your child would get stoned, a parent always had the right to rescind their honor, effectively forcing the court to pardon the child. Giving the death penalty was a beaurocratic nigh-impossibility in ancient judaism. I haven't even stated one quarter of the obstacles to any death penalty ever reaching fruition.
"It is better and more satisfactory to acquit a thousand guilty persons than to put a single innocent one to death." -Maimonides, medieval jewish philosopher
messenger: These are your (specifically your faith-not yours personally) interpretations and they differ significantly from religion to religion. This is what happens when we try to translate dead languages. Each faith has their own interpretation and stand behind it to the death. This is why many find it hard to swallow. It is what it is... Deal with it.
That's because I (that's me) am more trustworthy than Jesus. Yeah, I said it!
Agree with Hellrat though, getting completely sick of bible bashing here. Is the website called StorytownVillage.com? Do you see a sign on the front page that says Christian Preacher Storage? No, you know why that sign ain't there? Because talking about storing Christian preachers isn't our f***ing business!
holy moses, oz--- fvckin great!...shine on you crazy Diamond
hey blind, don't worry about spoilage...them fellers are all fvcking rotten anyway!
though I do recommend cold storage....freezing temperatures make them torpid, and they don't run their yap nearly as much
duct tape also works ok, but I prefer to keep my hands away from the knave's gnashing and sputtering rabid maw...too risky :)
i'm just surprised nergal's hands didn't burn when he held the bible. i was raised in a catholic skool my ENTIRE childhood (PRE-skool - 8th grade) and i say, BURN THE CHURCHES!! religion has NO place in government and ruling over the people. wow, i'm surprised that i'm NOT into black metal and more violent metal myself lol
Well, they were getting lame anyway....so maybe if he does some hard time in prison, that ought to sort him out and get the creative flow back up again.
Any statement which offends individuals belonging to a particular group should not be glorified and portrayed as heroism.
Anyone who even mentions how it is "juvenile" or how he "should have known it would offend people" is *completely* missing the point.
At this point, WHO CARES about whether it was rude or not, whether it was juvenile or artistic. He's being CHARGED WITH A CRIME for stating his opinion and ripping up a book. That is unconscionable, and the only thing to say here is that all Poles should be deeply ashamed of their government right now. (And all Catholics should be deeply ashamed of their religion, but that was true already...)
Hahah, nice Oz. I've always found it funny how this so called "proof" people like to spew about the existence of an all powerful creator being is in actuality just proof of why they WANT him to exist. Having a loving sky daddy to look out for you is easily preferable to not having a loving sky daddy making sure everything will turn out OK in the end.
They started on the Sodom & Gommorah story and I said, "Wait is this the one where a guy saves the angels by letting people rape his daughter instead? Heard it, the message sucks."
"Yes but that's because humans aren't perfect."
"Bit of a stupid story then isn't it?"
They really didn't want to take me on when it came to evolution and claimed that I was bringing the topic of religion into it far too much. How silly of me to bring up religion when we're talking about God!
"church as being a murderous cult"
Seems fair to me! Cult to a religion is only a matter of scale. Now who was it who started the witch-hunts during the 1600s? Who instigated the Spanish Inquisition and supported it? Which group controls vast sums of money and property the world over, while the followers starve to death? Hmmm, lets see...
"Nergal has stated that tearing apart the Bible was part of his artistic work and was not meant to offend religious sensibilities."
Dude, you do not need to come up with that lame of an excuse to publicly dispose of bullsh*t.
Poland- seriously? 2 f*ckin years? Grow up. Your too old to be taking fairy tales so seriously.
Oz always respect your elders mate....dont listen to what all these heshins tell you....good show....
Post 137 was an Oz classic btw.....when i saw the words jack and beans, i thought you were going to start singing that johnny bravo classic, " clowns never laughed before, beanstalks never grew"... well done anyways...
VPNH with the hitler remark.....wow!!!!!!!
Whats going on down there in south fla, lmao
What did the dumbass think was gonna happen. Im sure he was aware of the laws. I hope they do throw his ignorant a$$ in a cell. Make him think about how childish, and stupid ripping up a bible is. I dont mind if he doesnt believe in god, to each is their own! But why go out of your way in this " artistic expression" to bash christians or the bible. It shows nothing but how ignorant people who bash christianity can be! But thats my opinion. Why do people who do not belive in god have to try and shock, or should i say try to intimidate christians? Like they are in 7th grade trying to get their point across!
To post 180- just another ignorant post. Whipe out christianity and the world would be at peace?????? Are you serious, so i guess the terrorists would just stop, right? They would be like " you all arent christians anymore, ok then we love you america"!!! No, they hate freedom! So if you whipe freedom off the earth then maybe we would make some of these middle eastern countries happy.... There will never be peace PERIOD! Power out weighs religion, and so does money. As long as people want power and money, then there will be wars!
^^^phhhh.....he doesnt deserve jailtime for that, maybe a fine at most and have to issue an apologie. lol exactly how long would you sentence him for korndogg??? lol how much jail time do i deserve? ive ripped up every single bible i find in hotels i go to. sometimes i even use the pages to even out the sh**ty coffe tables, i have even used the 1st pages to roll joints worth(which sucked balls btw).
Irish- Makes me feel like I should have joined a long time ago haha.
This kinda reminds me of when my school started using little handheld bible papers as joint papers lol. Get over it guys this is pretty funny, it's a f***ing book.
We've almost broken the 200 mark boys, keep b****ing :P
KK, you didnt use it for kleenex or toilet paper?...what are you thinking....cleanliness is next to godliness...ever heard of that.....
Try using it as a clean up crew after sex as well, i mean if your in a hotel who needs towels for that sort of thing when you have god s word by the bed to lend a helping hand right?....
No job is done untill the paper work is complete....
"To post 180- just another ignorant post."
Followed quickly by...
"if you whipe freedom off the earth then maybe we would make some of these middle eastern countries happy"
I-RONY! Not least for the mispelling of "wipe."
"Try using it as a clean up crew after sex as well, i mean if your in a hotel who needs towels for that sort of thing when you have god s word by the bed to lend a helping hand right?...."
That made me laugh and it made me laugh hard.
no fvckin kidding XF....ripping up the damned book has graduated to being a terrorist act in the feebly fascist kindergarten mind of the messenger, eh?
jesus fvcking hell---what the goddamned fvck does this twit know about fvcking terror??
so, dear Oracle...you know that the only 'good prophets' have all been martyred, ya? yes, they were so fvcking irritating to their fellow men that they were put out of everyone's misery :)
...are YOU ready to make the Big Commit to your ovine faith there, Simon Zealot?...nah, heavens NO! woolly little lamb prolly don't even know no better
Behold!...a true fvckin sheep of men!
Where to begin? Well Ill just skip the comment above, lol. That stupidity is beyond me.
@Oz- Are we really gonna go back to argueing or making fun of spelling or grammar? Again? Havent we had that conversation too many times? So instead of saying that, you should have said nothing. Because apparently you had nothing to comment on, so you chose to correct my spelling and say something was ironic! Nice.
@KK- Im not saying he should rot in jail, I just thought maybe a lil time in a cell would teach him how stupid and pointless his "artistic expression ' was! I guess any act of ignorance can be considered artistic now a days! You on the other hand dont need jail either, maybe you need a little help. Because I guess tearing out all the pages in hotel bibles excites you, or makes you feel rebellious. How old are we? It is a form of terrorism, attacking anyones beliefs for no reason, or just because you have different beliefs is wrong in any nature! Im not a religious guy, but you wont find me bashing on anyones religion. I just kills me to see how far some people will go to offend someone, or to go against the norm. Not bein a d***, just sayn!
"Are we really gonna go back to argueing or making fun of spelling or grammar?"
Oz made an awesome point and you completely disregarded it KORNDOGG - that's why no-one takes you seriously, not your speellling.
The messenger is hilarious. Hail Satan.
The irony was your ignorance. Saying all Middle Eastern countries hate freedom was laughable. In fact I did laugh. In fact, I'm gonna laugh again at your spelling. Ha!
And no, me and you haven't had the conversation about your spelling before, but more or less every other long time member on the site has had that discussion with you, you just don't take it on board. You could learn a thing or two if you listen once in a while instead of doing what you ALWAYS do and just disregard everyone's opinion on your continuing quest to prove you're always right.
RTB: what?? did i offend ANYONE?? lol too soon?? well, i'm pretty antsy, and a bit uncomfortably annoyed by this random rlly cold a$$ f***ing weather down here. everyday is 40 or 50 somthing, and i know it's not THAT cold for most ppl here, being from northern states, but i think anything below 60 is f***in' cold!! 40 and 50 something are just freezing!! i hate it!!
I wont comment on cynic, cause he made no point at all!~ I never said all middle eastern countries! Read it again Oz, and yes talking about spelling or grammar on here is pointless. Go through these 202 posts and tell me how many are 100% correct. So once again you failed to talk about the topic or even have a response to the topic of this thread in which I was talking about. And saying taking out all religion would cause peace is not an opinion, its a joke. So there for I did not disregard anyones opinion on here. And even if you call that an opinion, I brought it to topic along with KK comment, so where is the disregard. I even brought up your spelling comment when I should of just overlooked your ignorance because you had nothing to respond with but to stoop to talking about spelling.
PS- read post 36- where the metion of the middle east is brought up, and make fun of him. Bet you wont! Its practically the same thing I said except hes talking about people ripping pages out, Im just saying freedom is hated in some of those countries, so whether we get rid of our religion doesnt mean we wont go to war with them
Sorry, I was out doing stuff because I don't sit at the computer all day crying like a child.
We didn't say you disregarded everyones points, Cynic said you disregarded mine. Which you did. I said how it was ignorant to say that wiping freedom from the Earth would make some of these Middle Eastern countries happy. The point being that the countries you refer to have a different idea of what freedom is to say the U.S. or Canada. For example communist Russia believed they were free countries and so did Nazi Germany. So what you said about freedom requires more thought and it isn't as black and white as you seem to think it is.
Why do I keep bringing up your spelling? Because I like to. Because making a whining fan boy like you cry about how everyone makes no points but him makes me laugh. Because you've never once brought up anything of any interest and continue to post away thinking at some point, someone will care about you. Because everytime someone disagrees with you, you start screaming about how stupid other people are.
Sure did ES, even got him an academy award for best hoax errrrrrr, documentary.....i guess if he and 3 six mafia can win an academy award, anybody could..
Al gore..lmao, to think we almost elected that former PMRC degenerate...got we suck at voting....
Bg, nobody care s about your cars, when you sh!t an anaconda, let us all know,those are impressive....and don t forget to use the old testament to wipe...
*again hits schtick button, ala the bible take*
Finally, you stuck to the point. Im proud of you. And Mr news correspondent, im pretty sure you spend alot more time at a computer than I do. Or most people on here for that matter. Freedom is pretty self-explanitory. But Im just gald you made a point on topic. Oh and Ive read most of your articles, and mistakes have been made. So you can make fun of my spelling if it makes you feel better. I on the other hand laugh at you in general, not just the mistakes you write! Time for me to go to my "real job" so have a good day Mr. News Correspondent. LOL.
mebabyme: When I grow up I want to be just like you. He who roams the internet telling people what their problems are. Lol. May I play the role of Captain Obvious and point out that by posting your drivel in this thread you have joined the ranks of us pathetic losers who are arguing on an underground metal site and arguing points that are completely irrelevant to anything going on in the world and we all just want to have the last word? You sir... Are a joke. Bye now.
Oh noes my pride did just be destroyed because you did write lol in capitals! BG, help me out man! His words hurt too much. Better dig out my Life Is Peachy album because I can relate to the lyrics so much.
I stuck to the point on previous posts, you just didn't want to actually think for five seconds.
Why did you put the term real job in speech marks? Are you embarassed? Does it not feel good to be a fluffer?
Dont wanna get in a political arena MR..just to clarify my ramble, and or what i meant...
Tippa PMRC wife of al gore, Al was part of the PMRC hearings if you remember, especially the dee snider exchange
Global warming?....well it was one of the coldest winters on record i believe in 70 years , while pollution does contribute to global warming, most scientists have stated that the earth's temperature has increased by 1 tenth of a degree in the last 30 years....and if you saw al' s doc, you would think that all the land on the earth will be swallowed up by the ocean in a matter of years..if you believe that, great....i dont, i think it was a ploy for people to stop polluting, go green so to speak, and if you dont this "could happen"....
But i dont think all the polar bears are gonna be swimming for land anytime soon....
I could be wrong,....its happend before
Oz: I'm pretty sure you've got this covered buddy. BTW... What's a fluffer? A ponce? lol.
RTB: Well done, but you forgot one detail... The earth does this every 10,000 years. Core samples prove that this is just another cycle. How conceited is mankind to honestly think he is responsible?
al gore's documentary does sound a little exaggerated, but the key word here is GLOBAL warming. I won't deny that it has been very cold, but that's just in the U.S. as far as I know, A bitterly cold period in one area doesn't justify that global warming is a so called hoax.
218-220....yes, quite exactly....master, i think the majority of the northern hemisphere has had quite a frigid new year thus far
wow...Kornholio's imagined formidable intellectual prowess provides for some good slapstick :)
Yes, al is a far worse evil than his whore wife....the pmrc was a fvcking satire...this warming charade is more insidious. When us fish and wildlife make a ES designation based on a PROJECTION OF CONJECTURE, following a course of action that directly contradicts sound and proven management ESPECIALLY if the speculation of shrinking habitat does in fact evolve (there are currently more fvcking ice bears now than at anytime since proper censusing began)...well, just one example of sneaky indicators....some of you have alluded to others
there's no getting to the slimy bottom of the corrupt politics of global economics...which IS what makes the world of men go round...though the right series of dance moves by our dear old mother earth will tear asunder any fvcking absurd notion of self importance mankind pretends to possess...
NP----Three Days of Darkness---Testament
A fluffer is someone who had to get male porn stars erect. I'm not sure how this was done exactly, but I don't want the job :P
The sad thing about this little arguement is that I don't want to be involved. I don't care but for some reason I'm drawn to it likes flies on sh**. It's pointless.
As far as the global warming issue is concerned, I do what I can, though I'm not too sure about how true it is. I do believe global warming is happening but in the long run, I don't think man has a massive effect. I'm much more concerned about overpopulation. There are well over six billion people on the planet and growing everyday. If it keeps up, you can kiss your comforts, civilisation and probably your life away. To quote George Carlin: "The planet isn't going anywhere.... we are!" But I don't see that happening for another 30 years or so, so I'll worry more about it then.
oz... them fluffers smoke the pole...back in the day my buddy's printing company made up a bunch of babydolls that said 'fluffer' in girlie letters and handed them out to hot chicks on the beach...they'd get all happy that someone game em a free tshirt and throw the thing on...
it was great :)
and yes overpopulation IS the real issue....
Sorry, just got back from doing some stuff because I dont sit at my computer crying like Oz! Where to begin....
Wow we even got into global warming! My stand on that is similiar to what blingreed said, it does happen every so often, climate change is nothing new. It just takes thousands of years. But I will say that the over population of people and cars is not helping the situation. Doesnt matter though, it will all fall someday.
@ xdecapitation- yes I named myself after " jonathan davies " band. I could be like Oz and say YOU DUMB f*** mispelled davis. But I understood what you meant, so Ill just say that there is nothing wrong with naming yourself after one of your favorite bands on a metal website! ALot of people have their names affiliated with a band they like or are in. Because you dislike korn doesnt mean you are smart on posting that.
Im sorry i named myself after one of the most influencial bands of the 90s or of rock/metal period. They started a genre in metal. And did one hell of a job. Multi-platinum albums, ect. So point made.
@hellrat- Im not even sure how to respond to anything youve posted. lol. f***en retarded. You need help. Do yourself a favor and read post 224 again. Matter of fact, everybody read post 224. I would love to hear everyones take on that. Especially the spell checker Oz!
I think its totally messed up you can put someone in prison for tearing up a book. Yet creepy old guys in robes have gotten away with molesting thousands of children in their religious organization. Organized religion needs to earn respect and it has way too many protections, privileges, and free passes in my opinion. So many religious people claim that religion is required to make people decent or moral and yet while they go about saying this their actions scream otherwise.
well kornhole...it IS kinda hard to respond to things you absolutely don't understand....
and it IS pretty tough to manage a decent comprehension of ANY mundane topic when you are of such shoddy intelligence as you represent yourself to be
but please, feel free to have another go Korn Holio!
OK, to get back to the point - the fact that these people have such a hatred towards God and His Holy Word is PROOF in itself in the existance of God. People don't get mad at fairy tales. Man is by nature at enmity with God. Man hates the 'light' because he is a sinner. All this negative attitude towards God and sacred scriptures only confirms that the Bible is true - John 3:19,20 ; Romans 8:7 ; Ephesians 2:3 ; Philippians 3:18 ; Colossians 1:21, etc....
p.s. again, i'm not defending romanism - it's as much antichristian as nergal himself.
p.s.s. to xDecapitation : i garantee you that there will be more than 300 posts now ;-)
242......lol....where do you get these 1 liners at oz?....their a book i can buy? I could always use more material......
VPNH, lol... 52 degrees, florida...hmmmmmm
Ain't nothing wrong naming your cyber handle after your favorite band......it s what you make your handle i think thats important.....
We have some bad ones on this site, but their takes speak volumes, (wits wise) then we have some catchy, and clever names, but end up just being hacks....not mentioning any names.....
I know full well going into this what a waste of time I’m about to get into (Just see post 120 for the level of mental gymnastic the messenger is willing to put himself through to keep his supernatural belief system working in his head. When a book tells you to kill your children the obvious solution is to keep reading that book and find other verses you can use to justify ignoring that previous command – all while still proclaiming the entire book is the unchanging, divinely inspired word of God that must be followed.), but that comment above is one I’ve seen online about a bajillion times and it’s annoying every time. It’s such a transparent non-argument, but for some reason religious people think it’s this irrefutable rock that blocks any further dissent. Sadly, tis wrong.
First of all, he’s confusing animosity towards religion with animosity towards God. I can’t speak for Nergal or his religious beliefs, but as an atheist I obviously don’t hate Santa-Claus-For-Adults. As the messenger pointed out, you can’t hate something that doesn’t exist.
Secondly, this non-argument tries to make it so that no one can argue against Christianity in any capacity. “Why would you waste so much time arguing against my deity if you don’t believe He’s real?” Because Christianity, regardless of the fact that its deity isn’t any more real than Zeus, has a huge impact on our lives. Christianity is the number one religion in the U.S. and in the top three across the world – so obviously it’s something that can’t be ignored. This is the whole reason a huge number of people got into metal in the first place. Religion of various stripes caused them grief through their families/friends/governments and they needed an outlet for their frustration, which is provided by bands like Behemoth, which mocks religion.
Of course people are mad at Christianity despite its lack of a real deity! Christianity has given us The Army of God, which kills doctors and bombs clinics, a my-way-or-the-hellway mentality, which causes families to disown their children when they don’t buy into the religious koolaid, wars out the wazoo (although this one could be applied to nearly any religion), and a religious tinted government that tries to force its beliefs and standards on people who aren’t even part of the same religion. It’s utterly absurd to say that none of that allows people to show their displeasure with religion without coming to conclusion that those people are somehow secretly religious and are just thumbing their nose at the almighty to be rebellious.
^^Well said. I agree 100%. Most organized religion is corrupt! Everyone who is antichrist gets so upset over this subject. If god is not real and the bible is fake, then why mock, destroy, and continue to go out of your way to disrespect. Attention maybe, rebellion maybe? I refuse to disrespect someones beliefs. I dont care if nergal said hes an antichrist. Thats his choice, but to take as far as he is. Is just wrong on all levels!
PS- Oz you did make me laugh on that spoon post. Thats actually funny sh**. Didnt expect that.
please stop hating on korn because of korndogg people,we r all aware that he represents a huge bag of of severed p3nises, however its not korns fault that they possess some lame retarded fans...i think all bands do.just sayin, hate on korn all u want have fun! but not cause of the kornholio.. "remember who you are" bahahaha.
Korndogg- nobody hates on religion for no reason, those who r hating just feel the need to preach the truth, same way the pedophile priests preach how their god is the all and mighty powerful 1, who is forgiving yet relentless at the same time..
np-darkness of christ- slayer \m/
messenger: I just thought of something I saw from the hitchhicker's guide to the galaxy(the old serires, not the new movie) when I read your post. God and a man were in a conversation; this is how it went:
god: I refuse to prove that I exist. For proof denies faith and without faith I am nothing.
man: But the babel fish is a dead giveaway isn't it? It proves you exist and so therefore you don't.
god: Oh dear I hadn't thought of that. *vanishes*
So if proof denies faith, proving god exists proves he doesn't exist if god can't exist without faith.
Just something random for you to think about.
Hi Master_Randomizer - you've asked a very good question :-)
I won't try to fool anyone here pretending to be a Theologian - because i am not. I don't have the answers to everything. Is this weakness on my part ? No, i am only being intelectually honest here. Nevertheless, if ever i fail to give an answer this does not mean that an answer doesn't exist. The Bible has an answer to almost anything if we truly and sincerly take the time to search the Holy Writ. Of course, if we approach the Bible with the same attitude as xFiruath then we will never comprehend the overall message. Let it be said : i respect everyone here on this site and their beliefs - even if i disagree. I think this sort of 'exchange of views' is healthy - as long as it's done with respect for others.
Now back to your question - post 265 - is an APOLOGETICAL question. If you are TRULY interested in having an answer to this question you will need to do a little homework of your own ;-)
First - If you have a Bible please read Romans 1 , 2 Peter 3:2-9 , Psalms 53 - as well as the list of references mentionned in post 245. If you don't have a Bible - then go to biblegateway.com or net.bible.org to read these scriptures.
Second - After examining these texts could you honestly find yourself actually relating to what is written ? I sure did concerning myself. Our rebellion and sinful attitude towards God is exactly how we are described in the sacred writ. (for xFiruath - 2 Peter 3:3 - i know you're reading this ;-) .....Our hatred towards the Divine is not only a theological certainty but is also PROPHETIC.
Third - Look at the historical implications - not only has man rebelled against his Maker - but his hatred also for the things of God - His people and His word. Ever since Cain slew his brother Abel - history - until our modern day - still demonstrates this same hatred towards the Jews, christians and the Bible. Nothing has changed since then. The holocaust, the Inquisition (performed by the antichristian catholic church), etc...is just an example of history. lets not forget that Rome also tried to prevent the Bible from being translatted and given to the common people. Today, Christians all over the world (more or less) are still being persecuted - check out Persecution.com for more details. Today the president of Iran literally wants to wipe Israel off the map. Then you got bands like behemoth who rip Bibles and burn churches. It just doesn't stop. Sadly enough, most people confound catholicism with true christianity but they are not the same.
Hence, The Bible is TRUE when it reveals to us our DEPRAVITY - the condition of the human heart towards God. And if the Bible is true then God is true.
Fourth - I've just about reached my limit on apologetics. If you are truly interested in finding out more info - here is a list of websites you can check out : ICR.org
i hope this helps :-)
You know, I don't know why everyone decided to turn this forum into a hate message to Christians. They didn't do anything. Nergal knew what he was doing; he did it to get attention. If a Christian went into Saudi-Arabia and ripped a Koran apart, they wouldn't even get a trial, they'd just get murdered on the spot. That doesn't mean it's fair; I don't think he should have to go to prison either, and I'll miss him, but stop the hate messages. I'm sick of it.
its amazing how people run circles around the truth to make the bible still seem right.
it doesnt matter, the scripture. i dont believe it means anything. so if i relate to it, whoop-de-do. im 17 and ive related to fvckin harry potter as a 11 year old, that doesnt make it right, or good.
its just dumb.
@the messenger i see you got a lot of faith in that book man i respect that i dont got anything against christians but there is 1. thing about the bible that makes it all go down to water.It was written by a MAN.not god and thats a fact.People need faith so they choose the Holy Bible and God as their way and they hope for the best so they will go to heaven.In the end God doesnt exist neither does the Devil if there was an explanation i would say that ''god'' and the ''devil'' are within US. the good and the bad are people and thats reality.You cant let your life depend on a BOOK that was written thousands of years ago.As for Nergal Poland is a bad country to tear bible's apart too bad for him me being a Behemoth fan i hope he get's away.
It's disturbing that the Catholic church and all those who follow are insulted by a simple act of theatrical expression. What about the innocent children being molested by the very priests preaching goodness, forgiveness and tolerance. WTF !!!!
Adam, you will change Poland ... this is for sure !
It's time people open their eyes !
Post 278 - I understand your position and respect that But let me give you some points to consider :
1- The Bible isn't 1 book but 66 books (not including the apocryphal writings) written during a span of aprox. 2000 years by over 40 authors - many of whom never knew each other and YET they all wrote of the same thing - the unfolding of ''redemptive history''.
2- Textual criticism and manuscript evidence is a valid science.
3- What sets apart the Bible from other books is it's 'Divine Inspiration'. Of course the Bible is written by men. God accomplishes His purposes using men - including the crucifixtion of the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 2:23.
4- Divine Inspiration and the authenticity of the Sacred texts is validated by archaelogy, history, science and PROPHECY.
Here are a few examples : SCIENCE - in the book of Isaiah 40:22 (written aprox. 700 years before Christ) and in the book of Job 26:7 (dating is uncertain - but usually considered to be the oldest text written over 1000 years before Christ) tells us plainly that the earth is ROUND and is supported by GRAVITY. We give credit to Isaac Newton for discovering the law of gravity (he was a christian) but the Bible revealed this to us long before.
PROPHECY - in Psalms 22:16 (a Messianic psalm) there's a prophecy of the crucifixtion of Christ written 1000 years beforehand by king David. Most of you will probably say ''so what !'' but you must realize that this was written 800 years before crucifixtion as a form of capitol punishment was introduced by the roman empire.
in Isaiah 11:11, 66:8, etc... writes of the rebirth of the nation of Israel fulfilled in 1948 (written aprox. 700 years before Christ)
I could go on and on......the evidences are there for anyone who is truly seeking.
That's f***ing ridiculous...
Christians make all the big f***ing problems in this world.
When you see someone going to prison for ripping a book, that's when you know this world is soon to be over.
Christians need to f*** off...
If people can kill, and chop up sweet animals and eat them, why cant Nergal rip up some "no-proof of any truth" book?
Ugh... I dont even want to start, because this paragraph will not get into those peoples heads that think he did wrong... .
I just think this is bullsh**, that's all :(
since i'm seeing these bible verses i'll share my favorite one:
Precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of his saints.
i know what it's supposed to mean...but i love misconstruing things to fit what i want, just like many bible thumpers do.
This tearing up "Bible Topic" freenzy that BEHEMOTH frontman/Nergal is charge with is pretty serious (and would come off offensive/if it "offends" your Religious faith: we "all" have a right to our Sacred beliefs...'be respectful & "think" you know everything attitude). Although I'm at odds w/BEHEMOTH lyrics/message often times...'but I wouldn't want their Frontman/Leader Nergal nor any of them for that matter goin' to the slammer-Jail for 2yrs...'that's absolutely crazy!!! Please don't do that to him/NERGAL...'his a outspoken person. Anyway, hope things work out for the best and BEHEMOTH apologize or something. Peace!
We'll easily get to 300 on this thread. Afterall, it is good vs. evil. ;-)
Evanglical Baptist? Bwaaahahahahahaha!!! That explains a lot. "Send me money send me green heaven you will meet... Make a contribution and you'll get a better seat. Bow to leper messiahah".
One of my favorites has always been beware of false prophets. Discuss...
Messenger, here's the f*cking low-down.
1) The bible are texts written HUNDREDS of years after the "facts" they supposedly tell....can YOU say "Folklore"? We all know how reliable hand-me-down knowledge is. It's what myth and fable are made of.
2) Jesus was hardly unique...either during or BEFORE his day. There are texts written on stone from some 2000 years previous that tell THE SAME STORY, exept the protagonists name was (don't quote me 'cause I ain't 100% certain) Simon. That area of the world was and still is lousy with self proclaimed Messiah. It's called "Jerusalem Syndrome".
3) There are a good many books of the bible that were excised because they did not conform with the the rest of the message that has been mass force fed upon generation after generation.
4) The bible contains no mention of cromagnon, dinosaurs, kangaroos, or anything else that inhabitants of that place in that point in time would be aware of. The point? Only that one would think that that an all-knowing God would want to offer inarguable proof of the "divine inspiration" behind the writings of the "gospel".
5) Read beyond the 10 commandments we are all familiar with. These additional commandments concern God's rules governing the treatment of your "servants". So I suppose by that way of thinking, slavery is OK as long as it's done in a good Christian fashion.
I know this is beating a dead horse, and I could go on and on all night because of my deep hatred of all things that smack of religion (not just Christianity), but I'll give it a rest for now. OZ, please forgive any misspellings!
well that about wraps it up nicely Killer....thanks and well done---
should be the end of it....but the mssgr is like Eli in 'there will be blood'....he is absolutely clueless about the clearly transparent fallacy in his sermon and just keeps scrabbling back, convinced that folk around here actually give a flying fvck...there really aren't many places more foolish to go a preachin that rubbish
don't remember what denomination of lunacy ol Eli was....but i do seem to recall that it didn't really work out too well in the end there for him... :)
Well, thanx for them kind words hellrat - you carry your name well ;-)
post 298 - as for your dinosaurs and cavemen - the Bible DOES infact mention them. The book of Job speaks of wild men dwelling in caves as well as leviathan and behemoth (ironically) which are indeed dinosaurs. Isaiah speaks of the firey flying serpent. The Psalms and Isaiah also speak of 'rahab' which is a sea monster. Elsewhere throughout the Old Testament you will find the usage of the word 'dragon' in the King James version of the Bible. You must remember that the first appearance of the word 'dinosaur' in our english dictionary was in the early 1800's. Before then it was termed as 'dragons'.
i suggest you should actually READ the Bible before judging what it says or does not say. Just a thought.
nah, messenger...absolutely nothing personal---i don't even know who the hell you are (nor do i care to)
just think you're barkin up the wrong tree....there are plenty of places much more receptive to your fanciful allegory
i for one find it rather annoying (much too silly to be offensive)
though i am quite sure such sentiments from your fellow men have no bearing on any sense of discretion you may (not) possess
so i'll now discontinue 'encouraging' you further :)
happy trails there, Prophetito
dude, lookey here...i don't give a fvck what ANYone's choice of belief may be
but once someone begins lecturing their faith of whatever persuasion, irrespective of whether or not their 'audience' wants anything to do with their drivel ---then they have crossed the line, and are operating outside the parameters of common decency and social courtesy
believe whatever the hell you want, boy---if it works for you, you should stick with it....but please, just shut up about when you're around others who are not remotely interested in your compulsive fantasy...hell, ya didn't see the nergal dude walkin into the abbey and rippin up the godamned bible did ya?
show some basic human respect
thank you for your consideration, Eli ;)
You guys are forgetting the FACT that the bible was fashioned after other previous texts and writings (look up eye for an eye, it goes all the way back to the Sumerians). Even Christian holidays are ripped off from other religions. But you'll never convince the messenger because he has "faith".
Nothing wrong with having faith. I believe having faith is good for the soul. Ill start a new topic, since its clear most of you dont believe in god, and believe we are monkeys, lol. Just very civilized monkeys now. What do you think happens when you pass on? Nothing? That would mean you do not believe in the paranormal either? There is quite a bit of evidence supporting ghosts and such. Residual and intelligent energy. Just would love to hear your thoughts on that! I dont go to church often, but have read the bible more than once. It interests me, along with evolution and some other theorys. I like to look at all sides. In which i have done, I cant help but believe there is more and a higher power. How selfish are we to think we are it, and this is it. I beg to differ, but to each is theie own.
ps- well put messenger about the dinosaur topic. It does mention them in the bible. And of course they wouldnt use the word "dinosaur" since it wasnt the word for them then!
A Christian telling people to read a book before judging it? Talk about a role reversal! Is that a little draft I detect in hell?
For the record, I've read the Bible cover to cover, multiple times. If I had to recommend one book to convince people that Christianity is not real, it wouldn't be by Dawkins, Harris, or Hitchens. It would be the Bible. Anyone with even a shred of logic or reasoning ability who reads that book won't come away thinking that it's anything more than a collection of fairy tales, and they definitely won't be thinking its the sort of book you should basing your moral compass on.
GOD SAID EVERYONE REST UPON THIS MATTER! LET THIS FUTILE ARGUMENT WITH BRAIN DEAD SHEEPLE END. THEY ARE LOST IN HYPOCRISY AND DELUSIONAL STATES OF MIND. LET THEM BELIEVE THIS CHRISTIANITY OOGA BOOGA PROPAGANDA FOR MIND CONTROLLING WEAK MINDED SIMPLETONS.
WHAT CHRISTIANITY REALLY IS:
A BELIEF THAT SOME COSMIC JEWISH ZOMBIE CAN MAKE YOU LIVE FOREVER IF YOU TELEPATHICALLY TELL HIM THAT YOU ACCEPT HIM AS YOUR MASTER, SO HE CAN REMOVE AN EVIL FORCE FROM YOUR SOUL THAT IS PRESENT IN HUMANITY BECAUSE A RIB-WOMAN WAS CONVINCED BY A TALKING SNAKE TO EAT FROM A MAGICAL TREE.
MAKES PERFECT SENSE!!!!
301 - Leviathan was also thought to be the crocodile, and sea serpent myths and legends abound even today most not remotely related to dinosaurs.
The Behemoth is comparable to the elephant.
Dragons predate all christian philosophy (chinese myths)
Wild men in caves were refugees.
See, you can interpret it whatever way you want. The fact that every single culture in the world (many predating christianity) all had their own myths with monsters comparable to dinosaurs means nothing? Are the norse stories of giants, and fey gods completely untrue? Aztec gods that demanded sacrifices (although old testament god was partial to his bit of burnt offering ;)
Christ is a recycled religious figure that steals lore from many other religions - most prominent example is Mithra (6th century BC)
The main stories of his life are Mithra, with a sprinkling of Horus, Osiris, Sol, Marduk, Adonis, Dionysius, Tammuz... I could go on.
Have faith by all means. As long as it isn't forced upon others, it's harmless. But tout the bible as fact? That just doesn't fly in any way shape or form.
Personally, you may not dismiss other religions. But the vast majority of the people who do believe in their chosen religion, dismiss thousands of others as completely wrong, even though it's generally the same story/morals.
post 314 - you must read carefully the description given. most liberal scholars will say that behemoth was an elephant or hippo. the text says that behemoth had a tail like a cedar tree. did you ever see the tail of an elephant or hippo ? leviathan was a sea dragon according to our modern terms. read carefully the details. as for the cavemen - were you there ? liberal scholars will deny what the texts say if it conflicts with their scientific bias.
317 - With the behemoth, I was just pointing out that it could be either. Using a simile leaves it wide open to interpretation. "Like a cedar tree" could mean colour, strength, hardness or size. Or it could be a dinosaur descendant that died out not so long ago - using the Roc as an example. Or again, it could just be a monster myth. Look at every single greek and roman myth. Are those not fantastical monsters seen as fact to many back in that time?
The term leviathan as we use it generally means sea beast (whales are leviathans), which I covered with my sea monster myths point. Sea dragons were around long before christianity too ya know (china again)
As for the cavemen - was I there? Does that matter? Were you there? Are wild men in caves limited to being actual cavemen just because it gives some credibility to the bible being accurate history? Or is it likely that they fled war/famine/disease and couldn't stay anywhere. Perhaps descendants of the kingdoms that joshua conquered for the "chosen people"?
Korndogg, I haven't even seen that movie. I take it that's in reference to the last paragraph, which is a commonly used argument? If so, then what about that specific statement is untrue?
And no, I don't think 9-11 was a conspiracy, mostly because I'm not an american who was interested in it.
I'm glad that I've decided to sit this whole debate out, 'cause there's a ton of stupidity coming from posters on both sides of it.
On the original topic, all I have to say is what's already been said dozens of times: combining religion and government = bad. However, I highly doubt these charges will hold.
Oh, and Vader > Behemoth.
^^^ "cavemen...so easy a christian can do it!"....now that sh!t is fvckin funny you guys.... :)
regarding to the Nerg...pretty much the bottom line is, or should be:
if the dude rightfully aquired said copy of the damned book (any book!), he should be able to to what ever the hell he pleases with it....
the fact that its even a fvckin issue IS Cave-like...
Natsquatch, it's fun to debate :P
Just don't take it to heart. As long as it stays civil, then you can learn things, and make your own argument stronger once you find it challenged. Or you might even find it torn down. At the very least, it gets people thinking.
I agree with hellrat - if it's his book, then it's his to do with as he pleases.
Oh no, I'm not suggesting that there shouldn't be debate. It can definitely be fun/constructive. But sometimes I'm just not in the mood. For me personally, it would have been rather exhausting and a waste of time and typing when there's so many statements from both sides that I find retarded. So it's just much easier for me to have sat this one out and observed from the sidelines, haha.
aparently inteligent people don't talk about obvious things so there so need to say something that you point has been said a dozen times already.
vader used to be better than behemoth untill i think satanica or zos kia cultus from then on behemoth took the lead as a band that ctually develops both sound and arrangement-wise, whereas vader still play the same stuff that doesn't impress anyone anymore.Peter has to finally let the others have a say on the music or at least stop pising everyone off so they don't quit the band.
example: daray-playing with dimmu borgir now :D
do you think it should be the law?
Do you think it fair that somebodys offense, can steal 2 years of somebodys life?
If somebody "offended" you, would you happily put them away for 2 years?
Seriously it's stupid... Nothing else gets such protection
If somebody says my music taste is sh**, they don't get put away for 2 years, I just shrug it off.
but f***ing hell.. if somebody insults your imaginary friend..
If he thinks something is sh**, he should be allowed to say so, if people are "offended" it's thier own problem.
Irish- I was referring to your comments on the other "gods" that some believe christianity copied off of. Like Mithra, Horus, Odinas, ect. The basis of zeitgeist is that they are all the same. Born to a virgin, 25th of dec., crucified, resurected, ect. And after watching that movie, I will admit it made me question everything I was ever told or taught. Interesting to say the least. So I had to do research on it. With out going into detail, which I very well could, It is false that all those gods shared all the same things in which christianity copied off them. It was a very well spoken movie, to bash jesus and speak of conspiracies like 9-11, ect. So thats what I meant. If you havent seen it, its worth your time. But no proof of any thing they speak about in the movie. All opinionated.
KD, I don't know what research you did, but norse mythology (which I'm heavily interested in) has direct parallels with christianity, and an interweaving of beliefs due to christianity moving into the area at that time. But it's clear to see what came from where.
Most of those gods mentioned share small parts, some major parts.
Dionysus - god who made the first wine vs Jesus, who can turn water into wine (one upsmanship in action). Killed before birth, but brought to life in various ways (virgin birth at the same time)
Osiris, death and revivification on a 3 day cycle, also his 16 dismembered body parts represented by bread, and eaten.
Chinese zodiac, 12 animals/12disciples.
All the others may not have whatever the zeitgeist said (birth dates, whatever) but there are parallels to be drawn.
Ill try not to make this too long. But this kind of debate does interest me. And Irish and BG made very good points. Ill explain some of the research i did. Because like i said, this movie really blew me away, and opened my mind. Made me question christianity, so I had to research. Read many, many books. Ill bring up Horus- the god of the sun, or at least what the movie portrayed him as. It says Horus was born on Dec 25th, which is false. It was the Egyptian month Khoiak (which is november on our calenders). Says hes born of the virgin Isis-meri, in research he was born by Isis, but no follwoing name "mary", and she was not a virgin, but a widow of Orisis. Says he was crucified, buried for 3 days and resurected. False again- there is no proof of him being crucified, in 3000 BC where it dates Horus, crucifixion wasnt even invented, nor practiced until thousands of years later. Ect.
Mithras wasnt born of a virgin either, it states Mithras emerged from a rock. I will agree I have read some similarities as you have said. But nothing that is evidence of christianity stealing ideas or copied any mythology. While it all interests me, which is why I researched it. I guess we all believe what we believe. Not many scientists or historians will make these comparisions between christianity and others being one of the same. Because no accounts or proof is there. There is more,lol, but Ill cut it short.
It's very true that these supposedly christian holydays can be traced back to early paganism. It was actually the catholic church that blended their christianity with paganism after constantine. Technically speaking - these holydays aren't Biblical. Nowhere do you see in the New Testament the 1st century christians celebrating christmas, etc....The only 3 that are mentionned in scriptures are the jewish feast days, the sabbath and the Lord's day for worship. everything else comes from idolotrous pagan rome.
Now, no need to throw stones at me - i am just simply agreeing with you guys ;-)
Well, if you agree on that, is it too much of a stretch to see that a lot of the bible is common moral sense, and other parts could well be taken from myths, all woven together into a pretty story?
Personally, I found the bible has some good stories for pure reading value. And the things in it that make sense to actually live by are pretty blindingly obvious without having to read it. But I suppose that's were people differ. They're worried about an afterlife, and by association all the rules for getting accepted, and I'm not.
IF the Bible were a product of the catholic church then you would have a point - but it isn't. The Sacred Scriptures and the catholic church have NOTHING in common. The catholic church is antibiblical in practice and the office of the papacy is the seat of antichrist.
So i would consider it to be a great stretch to assume that the Bible contains pagan myths. To assume that the Bible contains pagan myths BECAUSE the roman catholic church is built on pagan myths is defective aristotolan logic. It would be like saying : all crows are black. my shoe is black - therefore my shoe is a crow (not the best example - but you get the point ;-)
If the pope isn't arrested by human rights laws for claiming to African communities that contraception gives you aids then Nergal shouldn't be arrested for telling the RCC to go f*** itself.
"the messenger"'s comment about faulty logic with cows and shoes is a good analogy for what he said about the church being pagan because it has incorporated pagan festival DATES and IMAGERY into its doctrine. You are a poor intellectual; try learning to argue better before posting fallacious crap like that on a page it has no business being on (even if it were correct, your argument isn't going anywhere).
I remember back in the days of Usenet, trolls used to post a seemingly innocuous theological question-- but they'd cross-post it to alt.religion.christianity, alt.religion.pagan, alt.religion.wicca, and alt.releigion.satanism, so any response that was made to the thread would go to all four groups.
This debate is downright civil and reasonable, compared to those flamewars.
That is wrong in my opinion, i believe the Bible 100% and allot in the bible is hapening now and it is coming to the point where the powers of this world are going to agree with 1 money system and a world that is faked out by the ball handeling of these leaders, That say in order to overcome the world ecol colasp we must join 2 gether and we will defiet hunger and the crises of this time, That is why you are seeing healthcare in usa that is not for the usa but the global agenda, Now im for healthcare when it don,t hurt my mother on medicare it does the are taking away from that program to what they say help fund. Bigger is the major companies being hit a-tt over a billion in cost they have to pay by this plan and it is not only they many msjor companies is going yo pay nillions and some billions, Now that said i got a job but not even middle class can see a-tt my have to cut jobs cause of this and all the other companies you heard of switch and bait give people what they want least by words and add more to it, Thats why knowone seen the bill untill it passed! Make america fall economy and those who once had now does not you think they want to choose a global plan so mabe they have and and not have not.. sorry people i love metal! I might not agree with what all is said in some bands! But we can't arrest people for ripping a bible just like we shoulded arrest people for reading we all should have that right at least.
I guess criminal activity must be pretty dry over in Poland. If he is indeed imprisoned over ripping a bible, you might as well imprison everyone else who doesn't believe in Christianity. Religion does more bad than good these days and people aren't always going to believe what you believe in. Just get the f*** over it.
420 how can you say that....
She's for the little man, the joe the plummer types, she represents truth, honor, integrity, family core values and passion for one s country....tea party express dot org 420....be part of the american dream....
Sorry bro the sarcasm level is on full tilt right now...i'll turn it down....
But in all seriousness, say what you want about her, but you cant sell me that we as americans are better off with barack obama....he's about as ballsy as jimmy carter ever was/is.....anyways B, have a good one, hope all is well in NC
come on metallers, what happened to all the fun???
the Finn is wigging out in the north and can't make sense of anything after a long dark winter of cabin fever... :)
where the hell's ol mssgr gone off to?? studying up, i'll wager...or maybe he's already gone away on the 'real' mission of global salvation itself....well, i reckon we gave him some decent training anyway...
may the force be with him...good luck Eli !! ;)
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I like his reply though.