Bloodbath Causes Controversy With New T-Shirt
Band Photo: Bloodbath (?)
Swedish metal act Bloodbath has posted the following message online:
"We have just learned that our latest shirt design has run into some controversy. Actually, It’s been a bit of a rocky road from the start with this one. Back at the sketch board, some of our art direction ideas were met by hesitation and according to the designer would feel 'uncomfortable to do.' However, the design went through and obviously with such a fantastic piece of artwork and beautiful symbolism the t-shirt has hit home with Bloodbath’s audience all over the world, but apparently a demon vomiting on Jesus on a cross, surrounded by snakes, vultures and skulls was over the line for some confused ” death metal” fans. Perhaps they should ask themselves if it was really death metal they were searching for in the first place. Here are examples of some Dr Phil approved quotes we recieved:
"Recently saw your t-shirt 'Mock The Cross'. It seems rather childish and immature not to mention very dangerous, to ridicule Christ. Why such disdainment for the incarnate God who died to save all mankind, even your sorry asses! If you have a problem with organized religion that’s one thing. It has little to do with Christ and His life and teachings. Of course if you curse Him in apparent ignorance, then you wouldn’t know the difference. Hell won’t be a cool place to be. The power of the cross is foolishness to those perishing."
"I Don’t care about all the satan woreshippers that are gonna flame me. But, BloodBath YOU JUST LOST A FAN. On that degrading shirt. I believe what i believe. I rather not have bands mock it. This band is done. Never again. See you on judgment day."
To top it off, we also just recieved the following message from Raw Talent, the printer of the merchandise:
“I have just been informed by the owner of the company that unfortunately we will not be able to print the 'mock the cross' design again for you guys. It is against the owner’s moral and ethical standard for himself and also for the company. He wanted me to let you know and to send his apologies.”
With that said, let’s get the weak aside and the Bloodbath choir ready to mock the fucking cross again as we moved on to a new printer for our latest over the top 'Iesous' shirt design. Original artwork by Alex Norman features a detailed drawing of a dead Jesus with a crown of thorns and blind eyes, bleeding crosses in the background on both sides, and his hair engulfing skulls and the Bloodbath logo. The back features a cross dripping in blood with the lyrics: 'Eeso Yeshua Iesous Die by Our Rage.' The design was also printed using a technique which results in the ink becoming one with the fabric, creating a soft vintage look and feel. Not a shirt to miss, grab one now!"
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193 Comments on "Bloodbath Causes Controversy With New T-Shirt"
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6. writes:
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9. writes:
Yeah I know Kali, I just can't understand their mindset. If people want to wear these shirts then why not - enough of them go around with bible verses etc on their shirts. What right do they have to dictate to a band what design they make? Meh tis not gonna change anytime soon.
"It seems rather childish and immature not to mention very dangerous, to ridicule Christ." - this quote however angers me. WTF is this person talking about, the only way it could be dangerous is if some Christian took offense and decided to teach them a lesson themselves - clearly in breach of their love everyone doctrine.
Np - Bloodbath - Bathe In Blood
Founder, owner & programmer
11. writes:
f***ing pansies. It's like if you wear many of the other death metal shirts with gore and demonic figures on them, you condone murder, etc. But you don't hear people b****ing about that (as much). If you don't like the shirt don't wear it. God forbid the scene depicts the same imagery or negativity with Christ in it. Then get p***ed and boycott the band. Hypocrites need to stop taking themselves and their religion so seriously. I respect people's right to believe in what they want, but nothing is above parody or negative depiction. Get over it.
Member
Member
13. writes:
When will this sh!t get old....???!!! Seriously. Everyone has the right to believe as they wish and everyone deserves the right to be respected. However, if there's something religious people are offended by, all they should do is stick to their own things, just like how non-believers and opposers stick to their things. No one has to go tell people that they are wrong for what they believe because everyone has different beliefs; it truly is as simple is that.
Oh, and it's not like this is the only design that is against religion under God anyways. Surely this concept shouldn't be new to people.
Remember, the job of religious people is NOT to condemn anyone.; God (for the the believers) does NOT approve of that. So if you follow God yet you find it ok to criticize other people, you're being a hypocrite.
End of story.
Member
14. writes:
"I Don’t care about all the satan woreshippers that are gonna flame me. But, BloodBath YOU JUST LOST A FAN. On that degrading shirt. I believe what i believe. I rather not have bands mock it. This band is done. Never again. See you on judgment day."
hahahahahahahhahaha. I actually had a good inside chuckle with that!
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24. writes:
I am a Christian and I think those comments were a little dumb. Not that I disagree with the sentiment, but come on! How could you listen to Bloodbath for however many albums and just now get that they are anti-Christian? None of these people have peeked at the lyrics or even read the song titles? I happen to dig their sound, but due to the lyrical content I have taken them out of my playlist. I don't agree with their message so I don't buy their stuff. Simple, right?
Member
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26. writes:
I understand what Treacherous is saying, but that is just where Christian metalheads differ from the rest. To a more mature Christian, content does matter. That is why he can maybe listen to Dark Tranquility, but not Deicide. I just don't pay attention to lyrics that much anymore, but then again, I won't voluntarily listen to say.....Gorgoroth or Burzum. With guys like that, you know what you get. However, if I already listened to them before, I won't stop. All that means is, I have not reached a level of maturity that many longtime Christians have attained.
Member
27. writes:
I might not be correct, but I never really felt Bloodbath was trying to put out a message. I always felt they were more over-the-top for the sake of being over-the-top. Bunch of dudes who loved Death metal and decided to do a project in the vein of old-school Death Metal. Totally brutal and controversial, but never really on a serious note. In a way for me its like watching a horror film. Bands like Slayer, Danzig, Gorgoroth, and, yes, Bloodbath appeal to me the same way as watching The Omen or The Exorcist. Just mindless entertainment, not to be taken seriously. But this is just me, others might not see it the same. And I do respect their opinions, as long as they respect mine.
28. writes:
lol. Do and Gunface, no the band doesnt have a myspace. It's all in planing right now. The guitarist and drummer are in another band right now, and the bass player just picked the instrument up a month or two ago, he's learning how to play under me and the guitarist's tutelage, and doin pretty good so far.
I'm the vocalist and general lyricist(and second guitarist if neccesary), although most of the song titles came from the bass player and this other guy we hang out with all the time. Think Cannibal Corpse, but more offensive all around. And alot more ridiculous. "c***ful of nails" is the second title we came up with. and it only gets worse from there...
the band itself may not be up and running for about a year, but when "Tears of the Fetus" comes out with their first album, I'll let you guys know. lol
Supporter
29. writes:
"To a more mature Christian, content does matter."
Does that mean no to Emperor's "Anthems to the Welkin at Dusk" even though the lyrics are from a philisophical satanic standpoint? Does that mean Nietzsche's "Der Antichrist" is out of the picture despite how brilliant of a book it is? What about the laughablly horrible lyrics of Venom, is that any different than any over the top evil horror movie? Where is the line on that? According to the bible everything that is not of god is with satan so where is the f***ing line? Are we excluding rational people's religions presented in a rational way because they are different ideologys?
Former Contributor
31. writes:
That's another advantage atheism has over Christianity. I don't have to go to bed worrying if I'll wake up in hell because of the music I listen too, I pity those who do. And I can listen to the most Christian of Christian bands at the same time, Believer and Trouble are the best!
Now Playing: At The Gates - "Raped by the Light of Christ"
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34. writes:
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37. writes:
"Aside from the crappy production, Anthems was great."
I couldn't picture Emperor or that album using a different production. To me atleast, Emperor is one of those bands that would actually be worse with a better production. Not so different than Darkthrone.
Kali, no I didnt get the message yet but I'll be sure to check it, thanx.
Member
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40. writes:
Yeah, I've got many problems with organized religion. I've taken several college courses on many various religions and it seems that every one of them has just way too many logical loopholes. I guess I'm just not trusting enough to put my "faith" into a "being" or cosmos that I don't know even exists.
Now playing: Exodus - "No Love"
41. writes:
why put love & trust into something or some one you can't see,touch or smell???....no one can prove a god actually exists...it's a crutch for the weak who have no strength in themselves....i have hope & faith but i don't waste it on a fictional being...hope,faith & love is for my family & friends....
Member
43. writes:
That's why they call it 'faith', Bully and That_One_Guy.
And no one is going to hell because of the music they listen to, and anyone who tells you that is being over-the-top, and from my beliefs, wrong . They could correctly say you're probably not following the model God would want for you. But going to hell? No. If you needed to be perfect to go to heaven, it'd be a lonely place.
Cynic, it's not the same as an Atheist listening to Christian bands. Christian bands espouse Christian beliefs, right? They talk about the tenants of their faith and battling evil and all that stuff normally prevalent in Christian lyrics.. A more apt comparison would be a band mocking Atheism, because that is what Bloodbath does to Christianity; mock and ridicule the symbols of my faith.
I'm not trying to convert the MU collective, I just want the reasoning for my stance to be clear whether or not you agree. I don't think Bloodbath should stop playing their music and I don't think their fans should stop listening. I just choose not to participate.
Former Contributor
49. writes:
And do Trouble and Believer not mock atheism? "Fools mock, at making, amends, for sin
You fools detest turning from evil", "look at all the lonely people, all I see is despair, and you`re lost in confusion, run to the light" etc.
And have you heard of Vomitorial Corpulence? I'd just laugh it off if they were as good as Burzum, but they're not.
It's so funny how Christianity changes with the times, 100 years ago and any time previous listening to Satanic material would be a mortal sin and you had to be a saint to get into heaven - now you can do what you want. The words of the bible stay the same but the meanings change with the liberalism of society.
Now Playing: Neoandertals - "Spawning of Species"
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50. writes:
Well, "You fools detest turning from evil" and "run to the light", I believe, are hardly the Atheist equivalent to "A schism of confusion weaken the trinity - Foresee the death of the holy alliance - The withering corpse of Christ - Mock the cross", I am, admittedly, biased. I do share the beliefs of Trouble and Believer, so perhaps I am not seeing this as indiscriminately as some of the others on here. And I speak not for all Christians(and certainly none from 100 years ago), for I know only what I believe. It is from here that I derive my outlook and opinions.
Again, not discouraging Bloodbath listenership, just getting one Christian, Metal Underground member's opinion out there.
I'm going out on a limb here, but we probably do not agree theologically, Netromancer(judging by your previous comments on this story), but appreciate your respect.
Member
51. writes:
No problem, bro. This site is a community of different minded folks all drawn together by a love for metal music. We all have our differences, but this should be one place where we can get along without being judged for them. By being metal-heads we already deal with that on a day to day basis, simply for our love of a music-style. I think this is a place where we should all be respected despite what we believe. My 2 cents.
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54. writes:
I just bought their CD. Not out of love for satan or any sh** like that, I'm atheist. For respect for sticking to your guns. Metal is about doing what you believe in no matter who says what.
On the issue of religion...I'm a decent human being. I treat others well and I don't live badly. If there is a christian god, then he is either truly loving and will let me into heaven not because of my homage, but my goodness, or he is not a leader I want. On who demands respect deserves none, and one who earns respect deserves all.
NP Deicide - Believe the Lie (Notice that a lot of the now playings are satanic/atheist?)
Supporter
55. writes:
Double post winsauce!! I got some more sh** to say.
First of all, Bully has been spewing baltantly stupid and unproductive sh** for like the past week. (I know I don't post often but I'm about 3 times a day) I understand an opinion but he contributes nothing. Could we do something about that?
And to Cynic: I get where you are coming from but you are kind of generalizing. Kind of like how everyone says because we wear black and growl that we constantly plot to shoot up schools, do stupid sh**, worship the devil (Whether or not you do matters not) etc. I just think it could get a bit more productive and a bit less spewing hate.
That's my two cents, again. NP - Lamb of God - A Devil In God's Country
Member
57. writes:
Netro said:
"By being metal-heads we already deal with that on a day to day basis, simply for our love of a music-style. I think this is a place where we should all be respected despite what we believe."
f***in A. I catch a lot of crap at work for listening to metal, and luckily this discussion has remained relatively intelligent and open minded, like it should be. I just purchased this shirt, by the way bahahaha.
@ FAN:
I'm psyched for it! Sounds killer haha.
Member
58. writes:
You guys know I am Christian and that I don't really care about all the crap controversy. I just don't listen to the bands that i think are not good for me or just go against what I believe.
But I am getting tired of you guys bashing us just because we are Christians, telling us we are hypocrites, stupid, dumb, weak...ask anyone that knows me here and they will tell you I have always been understanding and do not judge but it should go both ways. you guys are not better because you don't believe and I am not better because I do believe. we are just to sides of the medal and that doesn't mean the other one is a lesser being. I made a choice, you guys made a choice and we will all live with the consequences of our choices throughout our lives.
But I am really getting tired of being understanding while a lot of you guys aren't...
Member
60. writes:
"I Don’t care about all the satan woreshippers that are gonna flame me. But, BloodBath YOU JUST LOST A FAN. On that degrading shirt. I believe what i believe. I rather not have bands mock it. This band is done. Never again. See you on judgment day."
I mock you motherfvcker! This is funnier than the gorgoroth protesters!
I want a Deicide 'Fvck You God' t-shirt to come out. Imagine what THAT would do:)
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62. writes:
I personally believe that this situation doesn't deal with ALL Christians; it only deals with people who CALL themselves Christians.
A true follower of God shouldn't look down and make a scene towards other people who are not believers. People who do that are hypocrites.
However, if you are a true, understanding Christian who sticks to their beliefs and doesn't make a scene, they are a good Christian; those are the ones that deserve respect.
NP: "Ring Of Gold" -Bathory
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65. writes:
You can email me at queja013@student.otago.ac.nz - I've just started a summer job which has tired me out recently, the weekend should fix that though. Bathory sort of have two faces, the black metal and the viking metal. "Hammerheart" is the pinnacle of viking metal imo, "Blood Fire Death" is another classic.
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67. writes:
Red, you hit that one dead on the head my friend. I posted an absolute mother of a retort to Bully yesterday, but those damn govt. computers somehow cut it out. As someone who used to be on the opposite side of the coin a few years back, I know what people rail about. Yes, Christianity, like all religions have made mistakes. In its purest state, religion is relatively harmless. Even Satanism does not violence, but when taken to a fundamentalist level, that is when it starts to go bad. Humans are far too ignorant to just let things be as they are. The "Bigger d***" complex always has to kick in and jack everything up. If alot of supposed Christians were to take a look around and see that there are many people of the "ordained" nature that still think it is perfectly acceptable to like music in all genres and formats, that may change their judgement of us. Alas, too many Christians are far too narrow minded to accept that different is not wrong. I will be a metalhead till I'm dead in the ground, but it doesn't mean that I am incapable of loving God just as much as someone who listens to only Gospel music.
NP: Kamelot= EdenEcho
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68. writes:
Cynic: That song was from "In Memory Of Quorthon Vol. 2" I don't have too many Bathory albums but I listen to a lot of Bathory tracks from what's on my computer. I LOVE Bathory so much...R.I.P. Quorthon. Btw, I know you were talking about the album, but "Blood Fire Death" is one of my favorite songs!!!!!! \m/
Metalheaddrummer101: Did you mean that you agree with my opinion on post 62?
Member
69. writes:
Red -- I don't want you to get me wrong here. I'm not bashing religion. It's just not for me, but I'm not one to say to a Christian that they're wrong and I'm right. I have my opinion and I respect the opinion of others.
Jenny and Cynic -- "Blood Fire Death" and "Hammerheart" totally own. Don't get me wrong, I love all of Bathory's stuff, especially their first 5.
Member
70. writes:
TOG, that's all most Christians ask for. I also have a problem with "organized religion", but I don't crap on something someone else holds dear. The biggest problem I have with some churches is what they call "prosperity from the pulpit". We have a guy in our town that does that. That stuff is not right. It's just wierd being a minority in the metal world now. A Christian that still loves obnoxious, obscene, sometimes blasphemous music. Oh well.
NP: God Forbid= The Rain
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72. writes:
ap1 -- Much respect with what you just said. It's a shame more Christians aren't like you and Red. Many of the Christians I know tell me that I'm going to hell daily because of the music I listen to. They really don't even get a chance to know me. Narrow-minded twits.
Jenny -- I've never seen any Bathory music videos, but I own all of Bathory's CDs except the last 2 ("Nordland I" and "Nordland II"). I listen to Bathory often, as well with Death.. I own all of Chuck's discography. Not a bad Death CD in existence. I promise you, lol.
Member
73. writes:
TOG, it comes down to this, who am I to judge, when I am a sinner like everyone else. I am trying to better myself, but it's still a long road. I start with small things, like not saying GD anymore. I mean well, but I still falter. I try to be a good person, but I am still a man, and man is imperfect.
On another note, I laugh everytime I see your pic. I just keep hearing, in that creepy voice: "Bring your fat a$$ over here". Too much man, too much.
Member
Former Contributor
75. writes:
Yeah Bathory is underrated! Some of Quorthon's lyrics really hit me sometimes,
"Beloved thee who submit
The holy writings assured
The golden cross stained with innocent blood
But stand yet a thousand heavenward
Burning naked but smiling
Not full of fear but pride
Knowing death alone could cleanse them
Of the reasons for which they all die"
Member
77. writes:
I've been lectured for shirts I wear. One Terror shirt I have says on the back "f*** EVERYTHING YOU BELIEVE".
People will get offended by things that they don't agree with.
Those words are from a song that is all about living for you, not someone else. So I don't really care what people think. Wear you Bloobath shirt with pride, but be prepared to answer for it.
Member
Member
79. writes:
XWigglesX: Can you not see how a shirt that readS "F*CK EVERYTHING YOU BELIEVE" could be found offensive by many people? Not to say they're right or wrong for doing so, but they do not know the context of those lyrics. It sounds pretty negative on its own. Everyone is free to wear or say anything they want, but the objectors are free to do the same.
And to reiterate a point from my previos post: No one is going to hell because of the music they choose to listen to.
Former Contributor
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81. writes:
That is true, Cynic. I should say it is my belief that salvation is not determined by your music selection. Christians believe that we are all sinners, but that Jesus...you know how it goes. If our sins are forgiven, then why would the simple act of listening to 'unchristian' music be an unforgivable offense? But you're right, Cynic. It's just my interpretation.
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83. writes:
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88. writes:
alright then I'll give em a shot. why not, always on the lookout for new music. :p
Did you really name your kitten n*****? or was that just to make me laugh uncontrollably for like 10 minutes? It's actually still making me giggle just imagining tha tyou did. Somebody feed the n*****! get that n***** off of there, he's always rifflin through my stuff looking for something to take! Don't let n***** outside, he'll just get into fight with others like him!
Now Playing: Vital Remains- Hammer Down The Nails (what an awesome f***ing song, I cant believe I havent checked them out till recently...)
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91. writes:
F_A_N-There was a cat named n***** in 'Rats in the Walls' by H.P Lovecraft
they yell at don imus for saying "ho", and this b**** gets off scot-free?^ I should just start writing Winnie-the-pooh parodies where one of the characters runs around and jumps everywhere, constantly spelling his name to people who don't give a sh**: That's N eye double Gah-er!
Now Playing: Lamb of God- Resurection
92. writes:
F_A_N, Imus got yelled at for saying "nappy headed hoes" not just "ho"! It was racially motivated! They should have done more than just yell at him. I hate racists! About the topic, I'm not offended by the shirt or the christians that commented about it. I know it's human nature to be protective over the things we love or things people hold emotionally dear to them and that includes religion or deities. The only problem is people need to learn how to control their emotions and not be so quick to lash out on others that may feel differently to their belief.
Member
93. writes:
That Lovecraft story was also published in 1924. I would like to think race relations have progressed a bit since then. I would also like to think that a guy repeating 3 words he probably picked up from a TV show or rap song wouldnt be blown out of proportion. I'm sure I'll be disappointed on both counts.
Former Contributor
95. writes:
Imus got yelled at for saying "nappy headed hoes" not just "ho"!
true that the entire comment made it perhaps more racially motivated, but then why were al sharpton and Jesse Jackson talking about banning the word "ho"? Why not ban the phrase, "nappy headed ho"?
Besides the fact, everybody needs to lighten up a bit. It was a f***in joke. If you want to rail on something that offends you, listen to South Park. Or anything on Comedy Central. Come to think of it, do you have any idea how many times Jon stewart on the daily show has said n*****? I cant even count, but noone cares because his show is supposed to be funny, and people take it like that, instead of some serious f***in sh**. (plus, there's the fact that the word is censored, so the people stupid enough to be offended by words in this day and age are too dumb to figure out why they censored that word that started with an N.)
Seriously, chill the f*** out. it's a joke.
Now Playing: Queen- We are the Champions
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Former Contributor
98. writes:
Never heard of him? In a way you have! Metallica, Cradle of Filth, Thergothon, Bal-Sagoth, Electric Wizard etc, have all written songs based on his works. I would venture to say he's the single biggest influence on metal behind Satan. He writes short stories about the macarbre, alien forces, insanity, dreams, cults, forbidden knowledge etc.
Member
99. writes:
Thanks, Cynic, I'll have to check out some of his works. By the way, I left you a message in another thread (Testament, I think..) asking what your Metal Archives user name was. I'd like to read some of your reviews there, I think you have an excellent taste in music and respect your opinions very much.
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104. writes:
Lovecraft was a supremely interesting character and his stories have had a huge impact on music, games, movies, comics, and television series. It's a pity he never found commercial success before he died. I've studied Lovecraft pretty extensively and I'm not aware of anyone thinking he was a theistic Satanist, and since he died when Anton LaVey was only 7 years old it wouldn't be possible for him to be a LaVeyan Satanist. Anyone interested in his life who likes graphic novels should check out the Vertigo comic called "Lovecraft" which is a biography of his life that has been altered to include elements of his own stories to make it seem like his cosmology is real and the problems he suffered where caused by the cosmic terrors from beyond the stars.
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107. writes:
Lovecraft was an atheist, he wrote an essay on the topic entitled "A Confession of Unfaith". Metallica's "Call of Ktulu" and "The Thing That Should Not Be" are both based on Lovecraft's work.
To That_One_Guy, (and Psythe!) - I don't write reviews for MA, just MU. Though I enjoy reading reviews from both sites :) If you need any band recommendations, just ask. Cheers though - for anyone who wants to give me an email anytime I'll put my email up on my profile. I quite like the idea of having metal head mates from all over the world!
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108. writes:
^ahah, I was joking mate, hope you didn't take offense. I wouldn't care if you did write em for MA as well. Personally, one site's enough for me, but whatevs :) I love writing reviews, but I'm always worried they're not good enough so I take ages to write them lol.
And yeh, anyone from here wants to add me to msn or facebook or whatever, go for it. You can never have enough friends hahah :)
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110. writes:
but it's nowhere near finished yet! :/ lol!
Actually, I'm pretty excited about my next review that should be posted soon. Yakuza's album Transformations... GOOD album :) took me a freaking LONG time to figure out how to convey it's sound through words... very difficult... still think it could be a lot better, but I'm not exactly a professional writer or anything, so I've done all I can do for it :)
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114. writes:
RESPECT to you post 58 - Red, I am a Christian too. We have a right as Christians to disagree with the images presented on the shirt. On the other hand, Bloodbath have the right to freedom of speech, and so forth. I don't agree with them, Bloodbath, that is, however, they have rights too. I just feel a sense of empowerment and hope when I listen to Christian metal..as opposed to secular stuff. I still get an adrenaline rush from secular metal - however - I sometimes feels oppressed from the dark lyrics and content. For instance, some content from Alice In Chains is depressing as hell...esp. from DIRT..however the musik kicks total A$$!!
I also agree wholeheartedly - with Netromancer...and Trecherous..very well said.
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116. writes:
hey tx, haven't seen you in a long time. It's true, I mean I don't agree with the Bloodbath shirt but they can do it if they want. It is their choice but I don't have to like it. But I am still tired of being understanding when a lot of the guys on this site just keep bashing us because the Christians from before did bad things...well if we take the sum of all the non Christian in this world, they did a heck of a lot more bad things but since it is not related to faith or Religion they are better ?!! Nonsense.
Writer, Reviewer
117. writes:
I have nothing against people being Christian. I have my views on the religion itself, few of which are positive, but the way I see it, if a particular form of spirituality makes you happy, I should be happy you're happy, not frustrated that the same form doesn't make me happy too. So you enjoy your Christianity, I'll enjoy my wishy-washy Agnosticism and just maybe we can get along all the same :)
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121. writes:
The beauty of stances like mine, Red, and Tex, is that we enjoy both sides of the coin. I love the way metal makes me feel, but at the same time, I enjoy the fact that I am trying to better myself. Since I have started to embrace the other side, I am more at peace with myself, but not always the world around me. I don't neccesarily enjoy the situation I'm in, but I was put here for a reason. While I am trying to change my situation, I still find reasons everyday to enjoy it. Bully, you are truly deluded. Intolerance, and ignorance causes hatred, not religion itself. Think about that.
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124. writes:
good point americanpatriot, I too am at peace with myself since I found faith 13 years ago but I am certainly not at peace with the world, it mostly makes me sick. Too much bad things going on. The values of modern society sure doesn't push people toward being good, understanding and helpful. Metal is a good way of channelling that frustration and let it out. It's a blow valve, the best of the world.
Member
125. writes:
Hey AP and Red. I don't want to start an argument about religion, as much as I enjoy arguments, but I am curious about one thing. AP I know you said you were once an athiest, and I'm not sure about yourself Red, but can either of you tell me what caused you to embrace the faith?
I'm an athiest and have done a fair amount of reading and research of the bible etc, and I've read testimonies of athiests who became religious, but they are mostly hate speeches on something they left behind to give themselves confidence in their newfound faith.
So could either of you give me an insight? I don't think I could ever become religious, its just not right for me at all, but I would like to know your reasons. If you don't wish to share over the internet thats fine.
Np - The Haunted - The Crowning
126. writes:
say what ya want...ignorant,unintelligent,hateful....you religious fcks who are worshipping some non-existant being whom you think looks over everything & sits in heaven on his/her golden throne ruling all & seeing all & controls all, now that's fckin weak, not to mention ridiculous....religion is a game of telephone through the ages....nothing but myths & theories with absolutely no basis that stupid (yes stupid & ingnorant) people think is the holy gospel. what are you guys anyway?? so dumb to think all this was created by some guy???.....that's stupid & even more stupid to worship said non-existent guy.....you're a fool if ya do
Member
127. writes:
Cynic -- I guess I must have misunderstood one of your other posts in another thread. For some reason I thought you said that you did reviews for MA also. Sorry. Also, the CD sorting comment made me chuckle just a bit, lol.
bully -- Being religious isn't weak or ridiculous, not to mention ignorant or stupid. Calling someone's beliefs stupid or ignorant is in itself stupid and ignorant. Is it so hard to grasp that you may not be right? I am not a Christian, as I've said many times, but I'm not one to call Christianity stupid or mock their beliefs. For all I know, I may be wrong and Christianity may be right. No sense in burning bridges, now is there?
psythe -- I agree 100% with your post 117.
Now playing: Exodus - "I Am Abomination"
Member
128. writes:
Don't misunderstand me Irish, I'm not religious. I am a very spiritual person. As far as finding faith, it's a bunch of things. Simple things like, nothing cannot simply produce nothing. Nothing is exactly that, nonexistent. I never left atheism behind, so much as I grew out of it. All of the haters are to to rag me on this one but I don't care. My wife and I tried for years to conceive, but with no luck. We tried various things, including having a full test done on both of us to see what the problem was. I was told I had a low sperm count, and my wife had massive scar tissue in her fallopian tubes that would prevent anything from traveling up there. I asked all the doctors what our next plan of attack should be. They all said, pray. So that's what we did. When we got to Georgia, we managed to conceive, but we lost the baby a few months into the pregnancy. My faith was shaken that day, but I told myself that God would not give us an inferior product after waiting all that time. I placed my faith in Him again for something to happen. Doctors found the problem, but not before we conceived again. We now have the most awesome thing that has ever asked to have his butt wiped. Alot of the naysayers will spout that, "that is just science, science found a way". Fair enough, I used to say the same thing myself. Here's the thing. Someone planted the seed of intelligence in the form that one day becomes a doctor, engineer, architect, rocket scientist, plumber, or garbage man who can memorize 100 routes in a city. Nothing begats nothing Irish. I hope this may clear a few things up for the people who are on the fence. Now, I still have question, and I still have doubts. No man I know of, religious or not, is free of that burden. Hopefully the day will come, when I can freely walk without said burden hanging on my shoulders. Until then, I am a work in progress.
129. writes:
OK, let me rephrase. In my firm opinion i think it's silly. you would not worship the easter bunny or santa claus would ya?? so why worship a god who's existance can not be proved?? in my firm opinion to worship itself is weak. i believe it's good to have faith in something. but an all seeing,all knowing,all powerful being responsible for creation of everything?? no fckin way. to worship anything or anyone is weak & it's absolutely ridiculous & nonsensicle to worship that which you can not see,touch,smell or taste or prove....just my opinion
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132. writes:
"I have known many gods. He who denies them is as blind as he who trusts them too deeply."
-Conan the Cimmerian
To say that someone who believes in God doesnt share your views on friends, family and themselves doesnt really make sense. From what Ive seen many religious views only try to strengthen the bonds between friends and family, as well as realizing you cant call on God for everything, therefore relying on oneself. If these things are where you draw your strength from thats great. But to say someone doesnt share that love and devotion simply because of a religious belief doesnt truly make sense. Not an attack on what anyone believes, just an observation.
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134. writes:
Its called faith bully. You can't compare God to Santa or the Easter Bunny. Faith drives people, it could be believing you can do a certain thing on your own or it could be the belief that someone (God) is watching out for you. You can't just slam someone for the way that they live. How about I rip on you for wearing xxl shirts? I'm sure you wouldn't like that?
Just for the record, religion has no role in my life. It goes against my straight edge values.
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137. writes:
*peeks around the corner of a large tree* Is it cool now? Are we done discussing religion? Cheese and rice! BTW, Jesus sells the sweetest oranges i've ever tasted. I just can't figure out why he sells them by the interstate highway. For a guy as popular as he is; it seems he could get some backing and set up a respectable market.
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142. writes:
Fair enough AP, I understand were you are coming from completely and I just don't subscribe to that. But its all good really. As long as we have fun in life and try not to tread on each others toes too much. My parents still want me to stay in the church but its just a big no for me.
Np - Dimmu Borgir - Vredesbyrd
143. writes:
wiggles, are you the only one on this board??....i think not. too bad your sick of it. this conversation took a turn too religion & said was discussed. then you butted in. why don't you mind your own business & not try to stick up for people who are not askin for it. so if you're sick of this debate, find something constructive to do & stop reading.
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144. writes:
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147. writes:
Well Blind I have a feeling that there could be one swimming in the backyard at my work. It has been raining for almost two days now. And it is Summer. I can't remember the last time I wore 4 layers of clothes in Summer. Crazy.
How's it all going your way dude?
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150. writes:
Yeah I am proud to be a Christian. I have actually met some wonderful people online here. Good to see you back too, Red. Yes, it is sad that some people continue to bash Christianity, but we shall persevere - my faith is strong! It is evident that other Christians on this site have strong faith in Christ, as well.
To AP1 - sorry I didn't mention you, as well, your words were moving and thoughtful. I need to go listen to Living Sacrifice now. Rock on metal heads!
Former Contributor
152. writes:
Bully, I'm hardened, militant atheist - but even I can see that your points aren't helpful or even very well thought out.
"I'm not religious. I am a very spiritual person." - That is a crock of sh**, a way for Christians to wipe the slate clean, wash the past blood off their hands and parade around as something new. Maybe you mean "I don't strictly follow mass religious practices," but you said "I'm not religious".
"I'm not religious, I have a relationship with Jesus! I'm not religious, I have faith! I'm not religious, I'm just spiritual!" - I've heard them all.
Let's face it, you just hate the word religious because over the years, sects of society have grown to hate religion because of the pedophilia, mass suicides, religious wars etc. Solution? Slap a new name on it an no-one will no the difference! You believe in God and Jesus = religious.
But hey, I get my definitions of words out of a dictionary, not Watchtower pamphlets.
Religion - 1.
a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
Member
153. writes:
I have heard that people tend to hate or fear what they don't understand. Do you some of you feel threatened by Christianity? I am just curious.
I will say that when you have accepted Christ as your savior, when you look upon something evil or disturbing - it bothers you. I for one, do not think the shirt is cool. I know it is that way with me. Beautiful words from both Red, Trech and AP1 - AP1 said it best - I am a sinner - so I have no right to pass judgment on other people. I will be a hypocrite then.
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154. writes:
Alright here it is : to answer Irish, I found faith through a series of events (too long to tell you right now) that really opened my eyes and if I didn't start to believe I would have been in strong denial.
Blindgreed, you're not sure I am religious and that is a really good point. I always make a difference between faith and religion. Most religious people would like you to think that the 2 of them can't go separately but they are wrong. I actually believe that religion is an institution that provides services, way of celebrating to the faithful or that goes into some kind of politics and can impose believes and ways to have faith. I think that religion is not necessarily a bad thing but it sure is when they tell you what you should understand of god, what you should do, who you should see, what you should listen to, makes you feel guilty all the time, imposes itself in you life and commits acts that are contrary to the belief.
So that takes me to myself and a lot of other Christians. We do not go to Church and we feel it is not necessary since God is everywhere and can listen to us anytime. We feel that if you look and listen closely he will help you understand what you should believe and how to act. He helps us to find the right path but we have to work to get to the right destination.
We are Christians who have a lot of faith but do not comply to the establishment of the church. We feel that the church is too political, too self centred and blind to the realities of the world. They are stuck in old symbols and celebrations that they do not understand anymore or that they do automatically without even thinking about it. Go the Church and look at a lot of the people there. Some of them do not even believe or have faith, they do it just to feel better and because they think that faking it and going to church will get them through...WRONG. Like God doesn't see through you...
So I have faith, I believe in God and Jesus but not in the Church. Church = humans thus = power and corruption.
Now to Bully : I just think you are not a very nice person and that you do not represent people who do not have faith in God. Most of the guys here are super nice and respects those of us who believe. you do not respect us and try to understand and that makes you an @ss. And you too have faith because you are so sure that God doesn't exist, even though you don't have the ultimate proof that he does not exist (nor do I have one that proves that he does), and that takes a lot of faith as well. You have a strong faith so does that mean (if I follow your line of thinking) that you are weak and stupid ?
To Wiggles : always a pleasure to see that you defend you ideas even if you do so with an idiot like bully (hence is name).
Former Contributor
155. writes:
Bully doesn't need faith to not believe in god - he has a lack of belief because there is no evidence of it. You don't need faith to not believe in globzonglers do you? Because you've got no evidence, reason, or logic to suppose they even exist.
However Red I liked your post which was sort of what I was trying to say in my prev post - don't say "I'm not religious" because that's a massive bending of the truth - you have to explain how you feel about Church and other elements of religious practices because it can't be fit into 3 words.
Member
156. writes:
Red: My point was that regardless of your faith, it wouldn't change my opinion of you. I don't consider religion my enemy. I am not religious, but I do not pretend that my way of thinking is right or wrong. It's just what I think. If you were a Satanist, I would still have the same opinion of you. Knowing that you are a Christian does about as much for me as knowing what your favorite color is. bully got some people whipped up on this thread, but i'd like to point out that he has also admitted that at times he is a jacka$$ so take it for what it's worth brother. How's little Red doing?
Wiggles: Yeah, fvcked up family stuff.
Member
157. writes:
Brilliant point - Red! No one asked me - but I grew up in a Christian home. My parents were actually Roman Catholics, in the beginning..but then we moved to a new city. I guess, I was raised to be a Christian. I don't regret my Christians beliefs, one bit. Faith actually kept me alive - so it drew me closer to God. I am no longer Baptist - in fact - I rarely go to church, however, my faith continues to be strong in God. This is why metalunderground is a good place because most people respect each other and their opinions...unlike BULLY. A very fitting name for you, I might say.
Member
158. writes:
Great points guys. I just thought I'd point out that a lot of Christians think of faith and religion as two seperate entities. Faith is your personal belief and trust in Christ. Religion refers to the acts, routines, and practices of a church. So when someone says they are not religious but faithful Christians the statement can be true. Perhaps they do not attend church weekly, study scripture daily, or myriad other things that are expected by some disciplines of the Christian faith, but they still can have a strong trust and love in God. Not religious, but with faith.
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160. writes:
Actually, f*** it, I will say something about this whole religion thing:
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? - Epicurus
This explains my views on God, and thus on religion. It does not, however, explain my views on religious people. My previous post (117) covered that.
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164. writes:
Oh, and excellent post Treacherous. Faith and Religion are in fact seperate entities. Faith is an individual, personal, almost intuitive feeling. Religion is an organisation. To clasify as a religion, a sect has to have a holy scripture, holy teachers, sacred rites and so on. Without these it is not a religion, yet people may nonetheless have faith in it.
I agree with Cynics point that a lot of people call themselves 'spiritual' rather than religious in order to disassociate themselves from the problems of religion. One must recognise, however, that being spiritual (ie spontaneous prayer) and being religious (ie praying in mass) are seperate and distinct concepts. Whereas some who are religious use the term 'spirituality' as a safety blanket, there are those who actually are spiritual and not religious.
Former Contributor
165. writes:
The basis of Christian religion and Christian faith is the belief that Jesus was the son of God, and omnipotent, benevolent, omniscient creator of the universe.
I disagree they are distinct and separate, more like faith is an umbrella term and organized religion comes under that umbrella as one way of expressing faith. Prayer is prayer, whether it's spontaneous or not. Again, the number one term of religion (the definition I gave above) is synonymous with faith so...
...Perhaps next next time "those who believe in god" wish to dissacociate themselves with going to church, they could use a less confusing word.
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166. writes:
A boy grows up on an island inhabited only by himself and his parents. They have no contact whatsoever with any other form of civilisation. The parents do not teach their child any form of religion. As the boy grows up, he has an inate feeling that there is something out there bigger and greater than himself. He wonders at the beauty of nature - wind in the trees, the sunrise, the moon on the ocean, the birds singing. He thinks there is a native goodness in all this, and feels that life itself is something more than he can comprehend. Even though he cannot understand these feelings, though he cannot argue them rationally or put reason to them, he intuitively knows that somehow, everything is and will be ok. That life goes on, that there is more to this world than splinters and bad crops.
This is faith. Religion is merely an organisation allowing people to enjoy their faith and to attempt to understand it, in whatever way they can. Religion is not needed to have faith, nor is it needed to enjoy or understand faith. There are those, however, who prefer to see their faith through the eyes of religion. Religion and faith (and this is the last I will say on this) are seperate and distinct concepts.
I do agree that people could use less confusing language to properly express themselves, but with an education system such as that in the US, we cannot entirely blame people for their inability to express themselves comprehensively.
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167. writes:
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? - Epicurus
Great quote, but that is why God gave us the gift of free will. To do as we will, right or wrong. The consequences are ours, and our alone.
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170. writes:
"If God is truly omniscient, omnipotent and benevolent - then how could he create anything with free will?" - Now THERE'S an argument I like! Excellent point!
Faith is not, I would say, pathetic. I would say that it is part of the human condition, just as reason is. Can you really imagine a world with no faith whatsoever, where everything was run by reason? Spontaneity and fun would both be out the door. I dunno how you feel about gambling, but poker is straight up boring without a little bit of risk: and thus a little bit of faith. Faith, as far as I'm concerned, works best when it works with reason, not in place of it.
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171. writes:
Chance and risk are different from faith - I never have faith that the dice will land on my number, but I know that there is a 1/6 chance, so that makes it fun. I know by reason that I can win.
When I trust my life to God in a dangerous situation instead of doing something sensible, there is no reason to say I will have 1/6 chance of being saved by God. There is no reason to believe I'll be saved at all.
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173. writes:
Ever noticed how Satanists and Atheists are "free and enlightened", but Christians are "weak minded fools"? Stunning dichotomy there folks. Cynic, I have both faith and reason, therefore, I don't need your pity. Here we go again with the bigger God complex again. I think now we see why many Christian metal heads are in the closet with their faith. It's too much of a bullsh** hassle.
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175. writes:
Any smart person, religious or otherwise usually wont just trust to God in a dangerous situation. The smart person, religious or not will probably do something sensible. Im kind of wondering where the arguement is here. Having religion doesnt make one stupid or unable to care for oneself. Im really skirting a middle ground because I dont believe anyone is right or wrong for their own beliefs, or lack thereof. Im just wondering where the arguement comes from that a religious person automatically lacks common sense, faith in family and friends, or any form of self-sufficiency. I know many people who believe in God, but I dont know anyone who waits around for God to save them when something goes awry.
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176. writes:
To both psythe and american patriot - that's not what I see as faith, that was just my view on the type of faith psythe mentioned in post 167. I believe when people say faith they really mean faith based on reason and reason as AP said. Either way faith to me just seems to be a weasel word for believing in something even though you have no reason, logic or evidence that it exists.
And to Netromancer and AP - the only person in here saying religion is for the weak etc is Bully. There are four Christians and a bunch of agnostics who've mainly contributed to this thread vs Me and bully who's making an a$$ out of himself, so the middle ground here is on the spiritual side.
Also, I wish someone would answer my post 170 - I've asked this question in every religious debate since I was 14 and never had an answer. I know there's one or Xtianity would have fallen apart long ago, just interested.
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178. writes:
They're one and the same to me. People might just use it in replacement of hope. But you'd never catch a Christian saying "I hope God exists!" rather than "I have faith!".
The whole reason I started this is because I really dislike people using faith/relationship/etc in replacement of religion and then give waffly ethereal definitions of faith. Why do Christians always dance around saying I believe in God and Jesus and other supernatural things?
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179. writes:
You give a task to somebody, and they are unsure they can complete it. You say, 'I have faith in you,' not 'I hope you can do it.' Hope and faith aren't the same thing, exactly, but one is part of the other. Just as faith and blind faith aren't the same thing, exactly, but one is part of the other. Saying faith and blind faith are one and the same is like saying that 2 is 3 because 2 is part of 3. If that's your argument, you need to understand that the term 'blind faith' wouldn't exist if it meant the same thing as 'faith', and that just because having blind faith involves having faith, it doesn't mean the two are one.
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180. writes:
Hey Cynic I agree with you and am an athiest insofar that the only possible force I could believe in is the original push that created the big bang. No personality, just something that happened. And what happened after is history and science.
In every argument I've had with religious/faithful people, I have never lost, but neither will they admit defeat, they just call me ignorant, faithless and doomed to hell. Every logical, ethical/moral, scientific and historical argument I present is mainly ignored.
So now I just don't bother arguing because people will believe what they believe. I will challenge dumb statements or stupid arguments, and I believe this counts for either side. I look at it from both points of view and if I can tear my argument down looking at it from a Christian point of view I know its not good enough, ie all of Bully's comments.
One group of people I cannot stand however are young earth creationists - every single scientific point they put up in defense of their faith that the earth was created 6000 years ago is scientifically wrong. I will argue with these people to the death.
To conclude, I just don't feel that arguing with most Christians does any good, and the only people that need to be challenged are the fundamentalists - Westboro baptist church and others - and people who make completely retarded statements.
Psythe has some good points but it all depends on the context of faith and religion - organised religion is that which involves churches etc, while people can be religious, ie follow the bible or whatever, but not go to the organised regimental stuff. Faith is a very general term that can mean anything really.
Np - Dimmu Borgir - For The World To Dictate Our Death
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181. writes:
f***! Just deleted my post... ok here we go again - psythe - then maybe I shall rephrase to "religious faith". Either way, to me faith is an acceptance of ignorance. I'll just stop looking for evidence, logic, and reason, and believe.
IrishMetal I agree, except for one thing. I argue with religious types for two reasons, one because there are too many agnostics, fence-sitters and silent atheists in the world while education and science are slandered by religion-mongers. I'll stop there and just post this - dubdubdub.ted.com/index.php/talks/richard_dawkins_on_militant_atheism.html
Secondly, the other reason I argue is because I genuinely want to know more about religion and so if someone presented an arguement that stood me up I'd want to know about it. Arguing with religious people has no doubt strengthened my atheistic beliefs, taught me a lot and made me more eloquent and concise when delivering arguments of any type.
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182. writes:
"If God is truly omniscient, omnipotent and benevolent - then how could he create anything with free will"?
Let me take a stab at this: God knows all, is a loving God, but also has the power to damn us all. Free will is simply that. We can CHOOSE to live in a fog, making it hard to get to the big house, or we can CHOOSE to walk the righteous path as best we can, admit our wrongs and repent for them. Repentence without learning is not repentence, but merely wallowing in the same muck on a different day of the week. God asks very little of us, and expects one thing in return. If we CHOOSE to disregard that, then we get what we ask for.
Irish: In all the battles with Christians in which you have been berated and handed your judgement, yes, indeed you have one. No one of living flesh can judge your soul. As far as facts and theories, yes, those can be a bit tricky sometimes, but that's what makes good old fashioned, clean natured debates fun.
Earth Creationists:..........dude, don't even get me started.
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183. writes:
I think this is what's officially called a stalemate. Those who believe, believe. Those who don't, don't. I am grateful it's remained fairly civil, though. I have to agree with Irish. My beliefs or lack thereof are safely anonymous. I dont feel it really matters in a thread like this, and at times it has caused more problems as people who think differently challenge me to change their way of thinking. Which I'm really not keen on. Folks need to find their own path in life and what works for them. But as metal-heads we need to keep this kind of respect for each other. Not to sound cheesy, but thats kinda what Metal has always been to me. We stand up for our own beliefs no matter what others think. Christian, Atheist, what have ya. God knows we get enough sh** for the music we love. Cheers. \m/
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184. writes:
I used to think I was atheistic until I realised I had the term mixed up with Agnosticism. I don't deny that there could be a God, but I do not believe there is one. That said I actually enjoy most religions, purely for their inspiring tales, their underlying messages of peace and love, and basically because the concept of a God/Gods is cool. I don't think there are any, but if there are, that's totally sweet, man! :)
"I argue is because I genuinely want to know more about religion and so if someone presented an arguement that stood me up I'd want to know about it." - This is the same with me. I will argue things I don't even believe in just because I find the argument in itself to be interesting. I will argue for or against theological belief, I will argue that I agree with and that I disagree with religion, simply in order to learn. I find the debate stimulating and pleasurable, so I debate anything just for that reason alone. I'm the type of guy who investigates the works of famous philosophers when I have spare time. I just love that kind of thinking :)
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185. writes:
Ah this thread seems to be nicely winding up anyway so I'll leave it there. But good point psythe about religion being interesting, some of my favourite lyrics are from the band Trouble from a Christian perspective...
"The one you love is dead
feeling so empty inside
I know it hurts
Out from the depths
I cry to you
shed all your tears
for the one, who is dead
He`s not to blame for his death
For his death
one day his fate will be yours
and we`ll pray for you."
Member
186. writes:
I would just like to point out that this debate is very interesting. Cynic, Ap, Irish, Psythe, you guys bring great arguments and thoughts. Instead of going for the : your dumb, you're stupid, you're weak you guys expose your beliefs and your questions with respect.
Cynic, I always use this to understand why we have free will : Imagine your parents (a normal parent that is, not a screwup) They made you out of love (normal parents again) because they wanted to express love to another being and share it with this being. Now they teach things to their child all along his life, they have hopes for him but ultimately, they do not want this child to be a puppet that doesn't make his decisions and that doesn't think. They want him to grow, be strong, intelligent, loving, caring, successful...along the way they express their concerns toward some decisions he makes, ask him to think about it because it might hurt him or those around him and to keep faith in their judgement. He he chooses not to listen to the parents, then the consequences of his actions are his only, yet the parents will be there to help him cope with it, help him recover and be understanding. Then again it is up to the child to learn from this or do it all over again. During all his life his parents will be there for him, love him with no conditions and watch him become whatever he wants to become. And so it goes with God, he's our father, he created us not to be be puppets (which would not be real love) but to grow and make decisions. All along the way he told us : hey you know that's how we should act, or I wouldn't do that but ultimately the choice is ours. And we deal with the consequences but if we chose to go to him, he will always be there for us to console us and make us stronger and never be alone. If you chose not to go to him, then so be it, it hurts him but he respects your choice. But there will come a time when you die, and if you wanted to be with him you will but if you wanted to have nothing to do with him, then you will not be with him.
I think hell is not a place where you burn and get a pitchfork in your ass, I think hell is a place where you are all alone, in a place devoid of the light of God (which is always there right now and that you feel even though you don't believe) where you are left with your choices and your regrets. And that to me is far worse than being in a hot place getting spanked because I can't imagine an eternity alone thinking : I should have, why didn't I, help me...but since I made the choice to be away from God, I am responsible for it...and that must hurt.
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190. writes:
Red, I liked your analogy on free will, I thought that was well written. Except use paragraphs, man! I very nearly didn't bother reading it just because it was one huge chunk of text :/ lol I'm a bit picky about these things :P
Thanks for the commendations, guys - pats on the back all 'round lol
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193. writes:
I don't know about you guys, but I'm getting bored of all the religious arguments. I think everybody knows everybody else's opinion on the matter, and we all know that arguing about it isn't going to get anything resolved and probably won't change anybody's mind either.
But hey, what do I know? Lol.
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1. Greg writes:
Epic Win.
Bloodbath will sell twice as many of these shirts, and twice as many albums thanks to the backlash.