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Behemoth's Nergal Back In Court Over Bible Tearing Incident

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Front man Nergal of Poland's Behemoth has returned to court again facing charges for tearing apart a bible on stage and the trial is back on track after Nergal's bone marrow transplant. A video from Nergal's court appearance can be viewed below.

Nergal also comments: "I spent 5 hours In the court in Gdynia today. The case is back on track and there's still few witnesses to be interviewed. It's way too early to give any further comment. I just hope the final verdict is gonna be positive for me. I have a feeling that I'm in this situation for right reasons and I'm not giving up. Cross fingers! The battle ain't over yet…"

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70 Comments on "Nergal Back In Court Over Bible Tearing"

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Anonymous Reader
1. slayer2049 writes:

that is really f***ing stupid. im gonna piss on a bible because of this

# Jun 30, 2011 @ 2:56 PM ET | IP Logged Reveal posts originating from the same IP address
Jigenuck's avatar

Member

2. Jigenuck writes:

Hein? I thought the case was dismissed
http://www.metalunderground.com/news/details.cfm?newsid=57328

# Jun 30, 2011 @ 3:20 PM ET | IP Logged Reveal posts originating from the same IP address
Dasher10's avatar

Writer/Reviewer

3. Dasher10 writes:

This guy just can't catch a break can he?

# Jun 30, 2011 @ 3:36 PM ET | IP Logged Reveal posts originating from the same IP address
Anonymous Reader
4. DreamHeater writes:

WHAT?
The guy beats leukemia and they try to throw him in jail!?
Honestly, I hate Christians sometimes...

# Jun 30, 2011 @ 3:50 PM ET | IP Logged Reveal posts originating from the same IP address
BrianMN's avatar

Member

5. BrianMN writes:

I realize he probably loves his country but you know what, pack your stuff and move to America where you'll be free to blaspheme your heart out.

# Jun 30, 2011 @ 4:11 PM ET | IP Logged Reveal posts originating from the same IP address
BrunoHockalugie's avatar

Member

6. BrunoHockalugie writes:

How many Pollacks does it take to tear a bible?

5- One to rip it and four to represent him in a court of law

# Jun 30, 2011 @ 4:21 PM ET | IP Logged Reveal posts originating from the same IP address
ZMA's avatar

Member

7. ZMA writes:

Ha, Bruno.

Religion sucks balls for this reason. Cause ya know there aren't thousands of copies of the same lousy fvckin' book or anything........

Guy 1:"Yo dude I just ripped the bible in half."
Guy 2:"Damn........well just grab another from the pile." *points to car sized pile of bibles*
Guy 3:"Cool story bro" *thumbs up*

# Jun 30, 2011 @ 4:49 PM ET | IP Logged Reveal posts originating from the same IP address
Anonymous Reader
8. hATE-eR writes:

I agree with BrianMN and slayer2049..., this is the most ridiculous waste of time and effort. What will this prove? That (their) God does exist? It's stupid...! Piss on all Bibles.

# Jun 30, 2011 @ 5:01 PM ET | IP Logged Reveal posts originating from the same IP address
OverkillExposure's avatar

Writer

9. OverkillExposure writes:

I see this as a reflection on cumbersome, time-and-money-wasting, freedom-stifling bureaucratic government, not on religion - which itself is neutral in cases like this.

# Jun 30, 2011 @ 5:10 PM ET | IP Logged Reveal posts originating from the same IP address
Anonymous Reader
10. Nergel burning writes:

Just let him go who cares.he'll rot in hell where I'm sure he wants to end up anyways.like most of the people on this site want too,lake of fire and brimstone sounds like it could be fun.let go!!

# Jun 30, 2011 @ 6:18 PM ET | IP Logged Reveal posts originating from the same IP address
Drum_Junkie's avatar

Member

11. Drum_Junkie writes:

This saddens me on a few levels.
1. I'm saddened by many of the reactions to this kind of news. Many are quick to blame the Roman Catholic Church or to generalize even further to place the blame on all Christians. If I remember the original story the charge was brought by Ryszard Nowak, who heads the All-Polish Committee for Defence against Sects. If any one is to blame for the charge, it's Mr. Nowak. Please don't lump all Christians, or even the Roman Catholic Church into this. You cannot judge the whole based on the actions of a few.

2. I'm saddened that Nergal chose to rip the Bible in the first place. Am I offended by it? Not really, it's his freedom to do so, and - as others have pointed out - there are plenty out there. It's not like he tore up my Bible. (He possibly bought that one himself - the money of which probably went back to the Christian publishers.) What makes me sad about it, is that Nergal has such a distaste for Christianity. I feel he is misinformed about what Christianity is about (based on the misguided actions of church leaders throughout history.) I won't deny that a great many sins have been committed in the name of Christianity, but I would like to point out that any action not performed out of love for God or neighbor was against Biblical teachings and contrary to Christian values.
It is my hope that more people would be able to separate the actions of misguided christians from the actual faith.

3. I'm also saddened by angry reactions by Christians condemning Nergal and fanning the flames of hate against him. All that does is pervert the message of Love that is central to Christian teachings. It also further encourages people like Nergal to continue the same actions, because it gets the response he desires. If those Christians were to simply say "Hey, I don't like what you're doing, but we've got plenty more where that came from." and not reward those actions, then the shock factor would fizzle out.

I'm sorry that this post was so long, I this is something I feel strongly about and had to post it.

# Jun 30, 2011 @ 6:21 PM ET | IP Logged Reveal posts originating from the same IP address
Anonymous Reader
12. GFox writes:

Drum Junkie, you sayd you feel he is misinformed...
he studied history... he probably knows very well what christianity is and has done to lots of people.

# Jun 30, 2011 @ 6:31 PM ET | IP Logged Reveal posts originating from the same IP address
Diamond Oz's avatar

Senior News Correspondent

13. Diamond Oz writes:

I don't know if people are actually blaming the church, but rather the fact that there is a law in place which places the church above criticism, or at least appears to.

As far as Nergal being misinformed about Christianity goes, I don't believe anyone is truely informed about what Christianity is. Everytime a Christian does something utterly stupid or says something vile, other Christians are very quick to say, "He doesn't follow the real Christianity. Don't pay attention to him." I can understand not wanting to be grouped in with the horrible links and phrases of some past believers, but to say that someone doesn't follow the "real" path to Christ or is misinformed, is silly.

# Jun 30, 2011 @ 6:35 PM ET | IP Logged Reveal posts originating from the same IP address
GORECUNT's avatar

Member

14. GORECUNT writes:

Bruno, that was clever

# Jun 30, 2011 @ 7:10 PM ET | IP Logged Reveal posts originating from the same IP address
ZMA's avatar

Member

15. ZMA writes:

I'm not blaming religion outright. It's partially that and partially the polish gov I think. And of course all the people really offended by something that wasn't really a big deal. It's a book. Just because it's the bible shouldn't mean that much. It's a story book lol.

# Jun 30, 2011 @ 7:23 PM ET | IP Logged Reveal posts originating from the same IP address
OverkillExposure's avatar

Writer

16. OverkillExposure writes:

Oz, I don't think it's simply about wanting to avoid guilt by association. A lot of Christians look at crimes and hateful actions/words in the name of religion with sadness and frustration, because Christ's message of love, forgiveness, and redemption isn't really being spread. More misery, hatred and distrust has been injected into the world. To Christians who are really trying to live a live of love, it's a sinking feeling, and it's important to speak out on those who abuse religion and alienate people like Nergal and many others. I found Drum Junkie's reaction thoughtful and refreshing, instead of continuing the pissing match that always happens with heated topics like this.

# Jun 30, 2011 @ 7:29 PM ET | IP Logged Reveal posts originating from the same IP address
Drum_Junkie's avatar

Member

17. Drum_Junkie writes:

GFox:
Your comment illustrates my first point. I did not say that Nergal doesn't know his history. He's probably very well versed in it and knows more about what 'people' have done in Christs' name than I. To blame Christianity as a whole based on those actions is a blanket judgement, just like blaming metal in general for the actions of some misguided fans.
Oz: From post 12, it appears to me that people do blame Christianity (. I am saddened by the reactions to this kind of news. As far as understanding Christianity goes, I agree with you completely. No one fully understands it - hence the many denominations. But, the one fundamental tenet is to follow the example Jesus set as told in the Gospels. This is to hold God above all things and to love your neighbor as yourself. If your actions are hateful, then they don't reflect that type of love and respect for God and for society, and that hate is against the teachings of the Christian faith. That part is clearly laid out - at least to me. People like the WBC have it bass ackwards and cast a bad light on Christianity as a whole because of the stereotype they create and promote. Yet the historical hateful actions of the Roman Catholic Church are what Nergal is focusing on. I wish he could separate those actions and understand that they were contrary to that fundamental principal of Christian love. That is the misinformed part I referred to. There are many other details that undoubtedly get confused and I readily admit that I'm no scholar, just a follower who does what he can.

I'd type a bit more (not that I haven't typed enough), but I've got to go jam now.

OverEx: Thanks for the support.

# Jun 30, 2011 @ 7:54 PM ET | IP Logged Reveal posts originating from the same IP address
Diamond Oz's avatar

Senior News Correspondent

18. Diamond Oz writes:

I think Nergal focuses on the Catholic Church because they have a very large following in Poland, much like they do in Ireland, South America and Italy, so that's what he was brought up with.

I don't know if the message of Christ is ultimately one of love, though I do believe it can be used in a positive manner. The message I always got from Jesus and the Bible as a child was fear. I think if Christ's message was a positive one and one of love, we wouldn't have the genocide of homosexuals in Uganda today, as they would love them for who they are.

I'm not attacking you or your beliefs in any way, you are of course entitled to them and I can see why you might be upset at some of the comments here, I'm just trying to explain why I think Nergal focuses on Catholocism, and that I don't personally believe Christianity is a positive force, as every Christian who has ever tried to preach to me has always resorted to hate speech, usually against gay people, and used the threat of eternal torment if I don't share their belief in Christ.

But like yourself, I am no scholar and am very tired, so I hope to continue this discussion in the civil manner we have been doing so tomorrow.

# Jun 30, 2011 @ 8:39 PM ET | IP Logged Reveal posts originating from the same IP address
Anonymous Reader
19. dmasa writes:

f*** the haters, I think if the accusers saw them live they would change their minds.

# Jun 30, 2011 @ 10:02 PM ET | IP Logged Reveal posts originating from the same IP address
Drum_Junkie's avatar

Member

20. Drum_Junkie writes:

OZ: I'm not offended by your comments (or any others so far) in the least, and appreciate the discussion. I am saddened by some, but not offended. People are gonna say what they're gonna say. "Haters gonna hate"

I do apologize for those who have used the 'fire and brimstone' approach to try to convert you to Christianity. While I hope that you would embrace it, that has to be your choice, and I know there is little I can say to change your mind. Should you choose to reread any biblical passages, I would start with the Gospels - especially John. Also 1 Corinthians 13 is great in its simplicity.

I agree that the persecution of homosexuals by ANYONE is wrong and should not be tolerated - especially when it is done by someone 'in the name of God'. While I personally disagree with the lifestyle, I do not hate them. A good friend of mine has a gay father. (His father was married for a while before coming out.) He's one of the nicest people I know. As far as the Uganda situation, I doubt very much that they are following biblical direction in committing those crimes against homosexuals. It's important look at peoples actions and distinguish what is Christlike behavior and what is not. Please allow me to paraphrase one comment you made.
"I think if *those Christians in Uganda used Christ's message as* a positive one and one of love, we wouldn't have the genocide of homosexuals *there* today, as they would love them for who they are." Is that an acceptable rephrasing? It's not the message that is flawed, it's how people twist it to suit ungodly goals.

I understood Nergals' target to be the Catholic Church in Poland, too. Honestly, I'm not entirely against him targeting the Catholic Church. I just disagree with his approach. I think he has every right and almost a personal responsibility to point out where the church has been hypocritical, tyrannical, and simply wrong. If he were to use the Bible as a tool for discussion (since that is what the church values), maybe he could be more effective. Rather his approach is to be be extremely provocative, which doesn't convert anyone to his side just emboldens the ones who were already on his side.
I guess it depends on what he wants to accomplish. If he just wants to b1tch about the church, then screw him. If he is serious about some type of change, then lets hear it.

Well. it's coming up on our holiday weekend to celebrate our freedom from you redcoats (lol), so I won't be on here much until Tuesday. When I have the chance, I'll keep tabs on this thread to further the discussion as long as you want, or until the 30 day limit - whichever comes first. :)
Good Night...

# Jun 30, 2011 @ 10:41 PM ET | IP Logged Reveal posts originating from the same IP address
Anonymous Reader
21. Darth Venom writes:

Nergal=winning Catholic Church/polish courts= fail....its not like he can't rip up a bookstore worth of bible's in america on the next behemoth tour....gotta hand it to whoever/whatever wrote those bronze age texts because they're still best sellers some 2000 years later...interesting thread hails and horns to all metal brethren

# Jun 30, 2011 @ 10:51 PM ET | IP Logged Reveal posts originating from the same IP address
ZMA's avatar

Member

22. ZMA writes:

Haha I'm sorry I had to laugh at Darth Venom's comment that was funny.

It's crazy how big the discussion can get when religion is involved. So many different opinions. No ones ever gonna completely agree. That's what makes me sad about stuff like this. Cause religion has played a part in tons of different conflicts through out history and it's still causing problems today and I know it's gonna continue to cause problems far into the future. And I'm not saying this from a "I don't like religion" point of view. More like a "outsider looking in" point of view.
I know this is the most cheesy played out line ever, but can't we all just get along? heh heh

# Jul 1, 2011 @ 12:32 AM ET | IP Logged Reveal posts originating from the same IP address
Pestilentich's avatar

Member

23. Pestilentich writes:

This pisses me off.

# Jul 1, 2011 @ 1:33 AM ET | IP Logged Reveal posts originating from the same IP address
Anonymous Reader
24. ssdd_69 writes:

I rolled a bunch of doob's w/ my bible! \m/ \m/

# Jul 1, 2011 @ 2:14 AM ET | IP Logged Reveal posts originating from the same IP address
RTB's avatar

Member

25. RTB writes:

I cannot stop laughing after brunos as well as posts 10&19
F@cking brilliant!

# Jul 1, 2011 @ 3:41 AM ET | IP Logged Reveal posts originating from the same IP address
hilzzy's avatar

Member

26. hilzzy writes:

dam nergals been having a tough life recently
first he gets leukemia then he broke up with his girlfriend and now he is back in court

# Jul 1, 2011 @ 4:08 AM ET | IP Logged Reveal posts originating from the same IP address
Anonymous Reader
27. jason_hunter writes:

Hi. I just wanna say this whole bible tearing incident is clearly driven by the government, working in conjunction with a church. See, Negral only recently began being recognizable by Poles,mainly through his relationship with Polish pop star. Until that time his name wasn't known to anyone really, small group of people, mainly Behemoth's fans. Now, since he became a nationwide star standing aside the most recognizable woman in the country, his acts are the easy target for authorities. Whoever stands aganist the 'Christ enemy' will gain the support of the vast majority of catholic population in a comming general election. It is all driven by politics, greedy bast__ards, who will capitalize on any ooprtunity in order to rule the country. I bet you when election is over this case will be dissmissed with no echo.

It's not the first time politics make fuss around some meaningless episode in orded to blind and deceive naive people. Believe me, I know. I've been living in Poland for the last 26 years, it's crazy stuff going on here.

# Jul 1, 2011 @ 5:06 AM ET | IP Logged Reveal posts originating from the same IP address
Drum_Junkie's avatar

Member

28. Drum_Junkie writes:

ZMA: I agree with you how the topic of religion leads to heated discussions. It's a very polarizing subject with strong feelings/beliefs on both sides. Due to the strength of ones feelings combined with limited knowledge of their beliefs, its easy to go overboard with their religious zeal and attack those that share opposing viewpoints. (I don't know of a verse in the bible that tells anyone to attack/belittle/pressure/condemn people that don't believe.)
I also wish people could be like the bumpersticker I see alot and coexist - as unlikely as that is to happen.

jason_hunter: That's an interesting perspective on the politics behind the charge. Make me wonder what was going on back in May 2010 when the case was originally filed and how Ryszard Nowak (the person who originated the charges) fits in politically.

hilzzy: almost sounds like a country song.... a metal country song. :)

# Jul 1, 2011 @ 6:33 AM ET | IP Logged Reveal posts originating from the same IP address
Anonymous Reader
29. jason_hunter writes:

He may have some personal issues with Nergal, and his ex-girlfriend, who was also accused of 'abusing the religious feelings'. The case is in court since earlier this year as well.

I might be wrong. I'm not following the current affairs with such a scrutiny, but the fact is he was politically involved, used to be The Parliament’s member back in 90’s and currently is the president of the quite large Polish city. He is also the member of Samoobrona (Self defense) party, who are basically the bush men with no education. Very religious though.

He already lost in first instance court and appealed now. I don’t think he has chances to win the case against Nergal anyway. At least the world knows what kind of stuff our courtd deal with instead of taking care of some real problems 

# Jul 1, 2011 @ 8:05 AM ET | IP Logged Reveal posts originating from the same IP address
R10's avatar

Member

30. R10 writes:

Good points Zman! I tend not to like to get involved in personal topics of discussion like religion or politics because they are very polarizing topics. To each there own i say. The Nergal case sounds like politics to me,grandstanding for publicity purposes only. Similar in a way to the "red" trials in this country in the 50s,when authors and Hollywood types were brought to trial by the government,for thied suspected Russia/commie ties. I find myself far more offended by the actions of the Westboro Baptist Church than someone who rips up a bible.

# Jul 1, 2011 @ 8:49 AM ET | IP Logged Reveal posts originating from the same IP address
Anonymous Reader
31. bdl1978 writes:

I never understood why people hold a book so sacred just because it contains words. I can understand if the original bible was damaged intentionally, but just another copy that was probably published in China (an Atheistic society) really holds no value. It is just a book. Think about how much money these publishing companies make from printing these bibles. They know there will always be a demand for the best selling book of all time. When something is about money how "sacred" can it be? The same holds true for passing around a donation plate at church. That is the most rediculous concept ever. To think that you can more or less buy your way into an imaginary heaven is obserd. Bibles even have an ISBN for crying out loud. It is not like God created all these bibles. There are a product produced by a company. Religion is and always has been about money and power and ultimately about control. People are blind.

# Jul 1, 2011 @ 11:31 AM ET | IP Logged Reveal posts originating from the same IP address
runlevel0's avatar

Member

32. runlevel0 writes:

First he had to fight against biological cancer and now he has to fight against the moral cancer.

While normal people are facing all kind of problems to get the Roman Catholic church to court for the thousands of cases of child abuse this same church finds no problem whatsoever in suing people for making use of their right to free speech.

I don't know what type of idiots make the laws in Poland, but it makes no sense at all that somebody gets sued because of destroying his own PRIVATE PROPERTY. And as long as Nergal did not steal the book he damaged from a church or attack a priest to get it he can do with his private property whatever he likes too.

The christians and muslims are quick in pointing at people for 'blasphemy' or for attacking them, while bashing atheists and non-believers is for them a vital part of their very creeds.

Don't take it wrong: This is not fair game. While atheists and non-believers ares constantly called to order and required to tolerate church, islam, etc, they are not measured with the same scale... if they where forced to be tolerant they would have to scrap 80% of their sacred texts.

Strength Nergal! you did already beat leukemia, the christian cancer is no match for you!

# Jul 1, 2011 @ 11:58 AM ET | IP Logged Reveal posts originating from the same IP address
Anonymous Reader
33. Nergel burning writes:

Drum junkie I haven't read all ur post,cuz their to long,but u make some good points.but its very simple it's either your 4 god or against god u can't serve 2 masters,their is no in between.behemoth is bada$$ but nergel stupid.haha

# Jul 1, 2011 @ 12:18 PM ET | IP Logged Reveal posts originating from the same IP address
Anonymous Reader
34. Josh_of_Doom writes:

He probably directs his anger at the catholic church because it is the single most brutal institution of all time, millions died over the centuries because of their actions. And the human race was held back many centuries because of their control of knowledge, the bible was declared the sum of all knowledge for almost 1500 years. Lets find better uses for our bibles, I use one as a door stop!

# Jul 1, 2011 @ 2:18 PM ET | IP Logged Reveal posts originating from the same IP address
Anonymous Reader
35. Nergal Will Win writes:

Doctors made the statement that he was well enough to stand trial. The sentenece he faces is 2 years in prison. He had 3 bodyguards with him to attend court. At least two of them are visible in the video.

Once again the church and it's toadies trying to shape Polish nationalism in accordance with Catholic moral doctrine.

Initially, the court found what Nergal did was not punishable under their laws, but Ryszard Nowak appealed. Ryszard Nowak is a Polish politician. A member of the Law and Justice party, which is a right wing conservative political party, and also Polands second largest political party. Historically in Poland, right wing politics and the Catholic church are synonymous. The party has an exremely Catholic approach, manditory closure of all shops on Sundays and other Catholic holidays, women at home, no reproductive rights, with one member saying "The affirmation of homosexuality will lead to the downfall of civilization. We can't agree to it". This is in accordance with Catholic moral doctrine. This same member also refused authorization for a gay pride march; declaring that it would be obscene and offensive to other people's religious beliefs. A Warsaw court later ruled that Kaczynski's actions were illegal. Ryszard Nowak is also working on that same premiss, that what Nergal did is offensive to other people's religious beliefs (other people's religious beliefs meaning counter to black and white Catholic moral doctrine, which is identical to his political position.) Being that it was already through court once I think things will be in Nergal's favor.

# Jul 1, 2011 @ 5:14 PM ET | IP Logged Reveal posts originating from the same IP address
jsbarnzy's avatar

Member

36. jsbarnzy writes:

the bible is 100% fact just misinterpreted, it's really about aliens and sh**!

# Jul 1, 2011 @ 5:18 PM ET | IP Logged Reveal posts originating from the same IP address
metalfan653's avatar

Member

37. metalfan653 writes:

Hey, the guy just almost got arrested, almost died, then went back to the hospital, now let's see if we can get him in prison shall we?

Dumbf***s.

# Jul 1, 2011 @ 5:25 PM ET | IP Logged Reveal posts originating from the same IP address
Anonymous Reader
38. hail satan writes:

jesus freaks, i hope you all burn in hell with me =)

# Jul 1, 2011 @ 8:30 PM ET | IP Logged Reveal posts originating from the same IP address
Master_Randomizer's avatar

Member

39. Master_Randomizer writes:

It just another book. Who gives a f**k?

# Jul 1, 2011 @ 10:14 PM ET | IP Logged Reveal posts originating from the same IP address
Anonymous Reader
40. Death Metal Rules \m/ writes:

Yup, gotta throw in my 2 cents' worth.
I will concede that Jesus' original teachings centered on forgiveness, understanding, and love. But that was Christ's Christianity. MODERN Christianity is a very different beast. Modern Christianity focuses on hatred of gays, its supposed "superiority" over other religions, and a very pronounced willingness to tell people they're all going to Hell for such "crimes" as having an abortion or premarital sex. Modern Christianity sees Pagans as Devil-worshippers, which is oh so just a bit of a stretch since Satan is a Christian deity. Modern Christianity disgusts me. Modern Christianity refuses to let anyone speak against it in any publicized way, or its followers will ready their pitchforks and torches. Looked what happened to the Dead Kennedys after they put out the "Frankenchrist" album. Look at all the death threats Marilyn Manson received on the "Antichrist Superstar" tour. I was in a record shop back in Ohio, talking to a guy behind the counter, and he made a great point I'll never forget... he said something to the tune of, "Yeah, as soon as you go after God in this country..." And it appears to be true in many other places. The Church and all churches are arrogant. They take the view that they are above questioning or reproach, and that none may state viewpoints that are contrary to their dogma. How conceited. I will never be down with religion. The only faith I feel even a touch of respect for is Paganism, because you can still be gay and welcomed in the Pagan community, and because they don't go door-to-door trying to convert people, and I'm betting they wouldn't try to arrest and jail someone who tore up one of their sacred texts. I used to volunteer at a local Pagan shop in the downtown area of my city of Everett, Washington. It was torched by a local nutjob. Reading about the whole sad event in the paper, I found out that apparently someone actually called the store after the fire and said, "This is what you get for having a picture of Jesus in your store." That makes me sick! And pisses me off! Saw a great bumpersticker once: "Jesus called-- He wants His religion back." Yeah, no s***!! And then the Catholic Church... well. Generations of so-called "men of God" have been molesting and raping kids for decades, maybe even centuries. So don't ask me to respect them! Remember the words of Slayer: "Religion is hate! Religion is fear! Religion is war!" Damn straight!! Screw the Church for trying to stifle any view other than its own. May Nergal be triumphant!!

# Jul 2, 2011 @ 1:32 AM ET | IP Logged Reveal posts originating from the same IP address
ZMA's avatar

Member

41. ZMA writes:

Yea that's exactly it Drum_Junkie. That's why I hate things like this. I don't want to agree or disagree with anyone. Of course I have my own thoughts on the matter, and they'll be people who would agree or disagree. And I've seen more then enough of these conversations through out my semi short life to see where the conversation leads with certain points said.

And like you said it gets overboard. At least I see most times it does.

# Jul 2, 2011 @ 2:11 AM ET | IP Logged Reveal posts originating from the same IP address
Anonymous Reader
42. Death Metal Rules \m/ writes:

Unrelated but relevant: I found out last night that Randy Blythe of Lamb of God of course is in a horror movie called "The Graves". He plays a murderous, violent religious fanatic. [Which is ironic I suppose, given the topic of this thread.] A deacon, actually, of a middle-of-nowhere-town's church, run by "Candyman" 's Tony Todd. I didn't have a clue it was him until there was a close-up shot of his face. At that, I thought, Holy s***, is that Randy Blythe??? I paid strict attention to his character for the rest of the film, trying to fully discern if it was him or not. Every shot of his face looked dead-on to be him. The only question mark was that I wasn't sure if he had as many tattoos as the guy in the film. But today I looked the film up on blessed Wikipedia, and sure enough, it confirms that it's Randy in the movie. He looks like he's enjoying playing the evil guy. Which only makes sense. So anyways, if any of you out there are huge LoG and/or, like myself, huge horror fans, I recommend this little flick. It's pretty cool watching Randy slice a woman's throat. Oh and, the girl with the light brown hair is gorgeous, I thought. She alone made it worth watching for me. But seeing Randy portray a wicked religious nut is just too damn cool!!~

# Jul 2, 2011 @ 2:26 AM ET | IP Logged Reveal posts originating from the same IP address
Drum_Junkie's avatar

Member

43. Drum_Junkie writes:

To Nergal will win:
I'm not really sure that the Catholic Church is behind this attack on Nergal. According to a 2010 article from UK's the Telegraph:
"The Committee for the Defence against Sects in Poland is the only entirely non-church related association that works to stop the introduction of sects into Poland. It was established by Ryszard Nowak, a former member of parliament from the political left who was pushed out of political life for creating this organization."
According to the Polish government website 'sejm.gov.pl' He is not a current member. Based on that information, your train of logic gets derailed right out of the station and the associations you made appear incorrect.

It seems the only person gunning for Nergal is Nowak. That said, I do agree that Nergal will win in the trial. I hope he does. The statute that he is being persecuted under is rarely enforced and is a stretch to even apply it to Nergals 2007 actions.

Now onto Death Metal Rules \m/:
I guess I am a follower of Christs' Christianity. A repeated theme in my posts has been to separate a persons actions from the teachings of the faith. Your post attempted to put a twist on that. If you said 'many Christians' instead of 'modern christianity' I'd be more in line with it. MODERN Christianity is made up of many different demoninations. You'd have to look at the beliefs of each one to make a determination whether they advocated the actions you mentioned. Each of your examples given were not actions of a Christian denomination but of a small unorganized group of people.
I'm not saying that the different Christian denominations are above reproach - far from it! The Catholic Church has its flaws, and I strongly oppose the way they've mishandled the sex abuses throughout the years. None of that is consistent with the Bible. A religious figure you might appreciate is Martin Luther, who also challenged the Catholic Church when it was at its peak in political power. (If you checked out my profile - I'm not Catholic.)

*It is important to compare the actions of people to the beliefs of a faith.*

# Jul 2, 2011 @ 9:23 AM ET | IP Logged Reveal posts originating from the same IP address
SrBagofCrap's avatar

Member

44. SrBagofCrap writes:

First off, I am a Catholic and Behemoth is one of my all time favorite bands. Their songs and lyrics really are a chilling and hauntingly beautiful yet brutal display of artistic talent from such a great band. I think the main issue here comes down to location and the issue of free speech. Poland being a heavily Christian country would obviously take the act of tearing a bible apart seriously, so it shouldn't be so much of a shock that some action was taken against him. No matter what people's opinion of religion is, if the law in Poland says that he is supposed to be punished for what he did, then he very well could be. It's a bit of a shame in my opinion. There are a$$holes in every country with many beliefs, and it's usually bad when the gain power over others.

# Jul 2, 2011 @ 12:19 PM ET | IP Logged Reveal posts originating from the same IP address
bbristowe's avatar

Member

45. bbristowe writes:

Religion is dying. Those who learn to think for themselves will do or already have done, all others will be cattle to the slaughter, if they weren't already.

Few will listen, Of the few who listen, fewer still will understand, Understanding does not mean believe,
Of the handful who believe, most may not know what to do,
Those who even know, how many will actually do ?
And the rare ones who have done it.......
Need not listen to you anymore.

# Jul 2, 2011 @ 12:45 PM ET | IP Logged Reveal posts originating from the same IP address
Anonymous Reader
46. bdl1978 writes:

The reason why less and less people are religious these days is because people are becoming more aware. Technology has allowed people to educated themselves. Science has opened many doors that were not open years ago. It is not coincidence that the least educated part of the U.S. is by far the most religious. I am referring to the south where there is a church on every corner of every street. You cannot be elected to any position of office in the south if you are not a Christian. It is pointless to even try. The U.S. is divided into sections of different people with different beliefs, and despite what most foreigners think of Americans, many areas of the U.S. are not religious at all. It is sickening that I have to fall into a category of generalized stupidity because I am American. As time goes on and older people who are more conservative die off, a new culture of people will rise up who think for themselves and who are not programmed from birth to believe in something rediculous. But I don't think that any of us will be alive to see this happen. At some point people have to wake up after too much bullsh** has been pushed down their throats and begin to question everything around them. I hope that logic prevails in the end.

# Jul 2, 2011 @ 1:50 PM ET | IP Logged Reveal posts originating from the same IP address
Anonymous Reader
47. Nergal Will Win writes:

There is only one article I can find that states Ryszard Nowak is a member of the Self-Defence party. It is this:

http://barthsnotes.wordpress.com/2010/05/10/ryszard-nowak-and-the-committee-for-the-defence-against-sects/

Nowhere in the actual Telegraph article does it say anything of the sort:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/poland/7681981/Pop-star-claims-Bible-written-by-drunks.html

There are many, many others that say he is a member of the Law and Justice Party: Directly from Wikipedia, Which was updated at a later date of the article above, “Ryszard Nowak (born 12 September 1962 in Nowy Sącz) is a Polish politician, member of Prawo i Sprawiedliwość (Law and Justice) party. He was elected to Sejm on September 25, 2005.[1] He is currently mayor of Nowy Sącz.[“

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryszard_Nowak

Indeed, from the Nowy Sacz official site:

City Officials
At the head of the city stands Major President Ryszard Nowak and a 23 member's City Council with their Chairman Mr Jerzy Wituszyński.

http://www.nowysacz.pl/gb/

Nowy Sacz appears to be in an area that votes mostly Law and Justice:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_and_Justice

Yes, Ryzard Nowak is the leader of All-Polish Committee for Defense Against Sects. And yes, it is he and members of the Law and Justice party that brought this back to court:

http://www.roadrunnerrecords.com/blabbermouth.net/news.aspx?mode=Article&newsitemID=135391


“A similar case in 2008 centered on Adam Darski, the lead singer for the heavy metal band Behemoth. His alleged offense was tearing and burning a Bible on stage during a concert in Gdynia in September 2007, and calling the Catholic religion the “most murderous cult on the planet.”[28] A complaint was reportedly brought to the prosecutor’s office by Ryszard Nowak, chairman of the Polish Committee for the Defense Against Sects, an organization devoted to upholding and defending Christian values.[29] During an investigation launched in February 2008, prosecutors consulted with experts from Jagiellonian University who argued that “each copy of the Bible may be the subject of religious worship,” and that therefore a breach of Article 196 had occurred.[30] However, Polish law requires at least two complainants or “victims” of religious insult for legal proceedings to move forward, and because Nowak was the only complainant or victim to emerge, the investigation was dropped. The case was revived in January 2010, when four members of Law and Justice (PiS), a mainstream conservative party, filed a complaint against Darski for the 2007 incident.[31] In May 2010, the prosecutor’s office reportedly requested an indictment, but according to the band, a court in Gdynia dismissed the case on June 28, finding that Darski’s actions did not constitute a crime under Article 196.[32]”

http://freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=577

According to Wikipedia, the Self-Defence of the Republic of Poland party switched it’s support to the Law and Justice Party after the 2005 election. Nowak, indeed, does seem to uphold their values or social religious conservatism and isolationism, even if the party is no longer that relevant:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-Defence_of_the_Republic_of_Poland

2 years in prison, statement from doctors, and three bodyguards:

http://www.plotek.pl/plotek/1,78649,9730367,Nergal_odpowie_za_profanacje_Biblii.html
http://www.plotek.pl/plotek/51,111483,9863075.html?i=0&bo=1

Have a look at this tool Nowak in court:

http://www.pudelek.pl/artykul/33401/nergal_w_sadzie_foto/

# Jul 2, 2011 @ 2:16 PM ET | IP Logged Reveal posts originating from the same IP address
BrianSD's avatar

Member

48. BrianSD writes:

I could never understand how people all over the world get so angry because someone prays to a different invisible man than they do. Religion is for people to have faith in something and for hope. Who the f*ck cares what someone else thinks.

I need something new to listen to anybody have any suggestions?

# Jul 2, 2011 @ 4:43 PM ET | IP Logged Reveal posts originating from the same IP address
Anonymous Reader
49. Darth Venom writes:

The best quote i ever heard about religion goes like this "We have just enough religion to makes us kill each other, but not quite enough to tolerate each other"....at leas this will be dealt with by courts and lawyers will probably end up being nothing...if he had torn up a koran in arab country then he'd be in real trouble

# Jul 2, 2011 @ 6:22 PM ET | IP Logged Reveal posts originating from the same IP address
Anonymous Reader
50. Nergal Will Win writes:

No, Nowak is not a member of the Sejm presently but he used to be, and still has friends that are, and he is still active in politics. 2011 is an election year in Poland. We'll see how he's working this leading into the election, likely in October, or if he's just a pain in the ass. Being that it was with the support of members of the Law and Justice party that this was possible, when I see his photo I can't help but think election campaign.

# Jul 2, 2011 @ 9:47 PM ET | IP Logged Reveal posts originating from the same IP address
Drum_Junkie's avatar

Member

51. Drum_Junkie writes:

Nergal will Win:

Great Detective work, dude! From your in depth research there does seem to be a loose connection between him and the Catholic church via the Law and Justice party. It still seems a stretch for me to think that the Catholic church is pulling strings in the Law and Justice party to pressure Nowak to pursue Nergal. Is Nergal really that high on the Catholics radar? That just seems like a stretch to me. From the links you provided, it paints a picture to me that this is primarily political and Nowak is working this angle to get re-elected.

I must apologize to you for a poor reference on my part.
I didn't check my link properly. The background info I provided is from "http://www.cesnur.org/2001/london2001/koscianska.htm"
That article is 10 years old. *face palm*

Thanks again for the research, and like I said before, I hope Nergal prevails against the tool.

# Jul 2, 2011 @ 11:05 PM ET | IP Logged Reveal posts originating from the same IP address
Valentine_no_more's avatar

Supporter

52. Valentine_no_more writes:

I'll tear a bible!

# Jul 2, 2011 @ 11:54 PM ET | IP Logged Reveal posts originating from the same IP address
EsotericSurgery's avatar

Member

53. EsotericSurgery writes:

Well said #32. Cool profile pic btw love it :D

# Jul 3, 2011 @ 12:06 AM ET | IP Logged Reveal posts originating from the same IP address
hilzzy's avatar

Member

54. hilzzy writes:

also.... didnt the christians burn books to do with science or technology???

# Jul 3, 2011 @ 7:48 AM ET | IP Logged Reveal posts originating from the same IP address
Anonymous Reader
55. justamannotagod writes:

Just remember gods and religion were all man made to explain what man couldn't. There are no miracles and magic is not real, if the supernatural was real then the human race would most likely be near extinction, for someone would have unleashed something destructive by now. For the belivers-there are many diffrent religions and all have a good and bad messages in them(all written by man), but remember mankind found it's morals and ethics through society and community not god. If we can, just try to remember all religious books are just that books filled with stories (myths if you like. again written by man). Feel free to draw upon these myths for inspiration and direction, but remember it's no different then those who would draw upon the myths of star wars, lord of the rings, and other fictional stories and characters for inspiration. As far as gods and the supernatural go it's not real and that there are somethings in the universe that man isn't able to explain at this time in his evolution(and may never). Life is all you have so just enjoy it will you have for all the good and bad that comes with it.

# Jul 3, 2011 @ 10:59 AM ET | IP Logged Reveal posts originating from the same IP address
Anonymous Reader
56. Nergal Will Win writes:

There is nothing loose about the connection between the Catholic Church and Polish politics, except the fact that they share the same bed. Often painting itself as a the herald of freedom or an innocent victim in the face of fascism and communist rule, the church itself followed it’s own interests in Polish politics, and in the post Communist era in particular, the force of Catholicism is yet another deterrent to freedom as opposed to the usher of it. During occupation over 6,000,000 died, mostly civilians, 3,000,000 of which were Jews. While occupied by Nazi Germany (which singled out Jews and any individuals that did not fit their Aryan race plan) and Communist Russia, both parties sought to destroy Polish culture. The Church fits in here as another political power, used to having considerable power in Poland for centuries. While the Church will take credit for freeing Poland from Communism, which is not entirely true (there were others,) not far off is their own political plan, moral social doctrine, which in the end is nothing to do with freedom. The church distanced itself quite quickly from early freedom fighters once their place was made after the end of Communism. Nazi’s, Communism, and the Roman Catholic Church, Poland has it’s work cut out. Poland now faces policies that highly favor the Catholic religion, and even though they have human rights law, their laws centered around religion make it difficult to maintain free speech. People have figured this out, and though Catholic support is high, it has steadily declined since soon after the end of Communist rule (church attendance statistics, etc.) Individuals like Ryszard Nowak are trying very hard to put Poland in a backward position that some individuals played on by fear elevate to political prominence. Fear mongering the fascist issue (ALL religious organizations were targeted, shut down, and individuals murdered by Nazi’s, Catholic and Evangelical alike), Communism issue (Communism was atheistic), and tying it in with Catholicism in general, who had a fair and lengthy rule before these issues (starting in 966), ensuring that most of the population is Catholic, and indeed, has faced some serious trials in history, while being mostly Catholic. 22% of the population was killed in occupied Poland, with still further children kidnapped, individuals deported, prisoners of war, and slave labourers. Now, with further “witch hunt” mentality, politicians like Nowak are raising issues like Satanism to further this rise of fear mongering (witch hunt mentality requires an attitude of hysterics) by creating these -threats to the Catholics like the Nazis and Communists, these ‘Satanists’ and any party that is in differentiation to Catholic moral doctrine are threats to the country of Poland and it‘s people and culture- attitudes and targeting music, like Behemoth, and individuals, like Nergal, in part by being able to exploit Poland’s anti hate speech laws. In reality, the maximum punishment for Nergal’s accused crime is a maximum of two years in prison, but lesser sentences are a fine or community service. Even if Nergal is convicted, he will not likely see jail time.

# Jul 3, 2011 @ 5:39 PM ET | IP Logged Reveal posts originating from the same IP address
Anonymous Reader
57. Nergal Will Win writes:

Ryszard Nowak’s “All Polish Committee for the Defence Against Sects” and the Law and Justice Party both eminently uphold Catholic moral doctrine and attempt to use it as a force of government. While freedom of religion is at issue for some, for others it a great issue. While this religious freedom seems sane, in the hands of policy makers that follow Catholic moral doctrine to a “t” it isn’t. The Catholic Church has made it clear it’s policies on reproductive rights, sex, marriage, children, being gay, etc, and a VERY broad scope in what it is to be contrary to Catholic doctrine and be a “devil worshiper” (the one true faith, you know.) As a political and not just moral force, this means this directly impacts how policy is made, laws written, money spent, and education (mandatory religious education in schools,) not to mention the role of censorship necessary in upholding this kind of regime. Nowak attempted to compile a list of bands not allowed to perform in Poland, but nothing appears to have come of it yet since bands like Behemoth are still performing. However, his rise to politics, his friends in the Law and Justice party, the upcoming election is troubling. While Poland appears to be quite polarized between east and west in it’s votes, guys like Nowak might not make the majority (hopefully not) but they will still be a face in politics, and have representatives in parliament.

The support the Catholic Church had in the 1980’s was due to the people’s desire for freedom. It was a site of anti-communist activity. Once Communism fell, this sentiment was taken further by the decline in support of the Catholic Church. The writers, scholars, artists, political activists that once had a common enemy in communism with the Church are now just another foe of the Church who does not appreciate liberalism, freedom, or individuality. This is taken over to the state, because there is an extremely strong connection between church and state in Poland.

# Jul 3, 2011 @ 5:40 PM ET | IP Logged Reveal posts originating from the same IP address
Anonymous Reader
58. nergal! writes:

this stuff is to funny everybody trying to figure out why nergal did it. he has u fooled huh? maybe he knew he was gonna tear up a bible for awhile now im sure its been eating at him it was just being at the right place at the right time and that show could of been the right time in his mind. Im sure he knew ppl would be mad, im sure he knew it would create controversy and im sure he knew ppl like u would blog about it trying to figure out why. it shouldnt b a shock i mean its BEHEMOTH! im surprised he didnt do it sooner i mean havent yall seen their videos! i mean its ok for marilyn manson to have a whole satanist ritual with poteum and all in concert and even tear up animals even do sexual acts mm is 10 times worse compared to nergal but its not ok to rip a bible? really? roman catholics r not to blame? really? weren't it the romans who crucified jesus? jsbarnzy is right not everything in the bible was of love u know in those days there was alot of sex, black magic, and exorcism. they left all the true the essence of mankind out! about 40 books worth wheres the book of enoch? wheres the strories of thecla or adam's first wife lilith not eve. as a matter of fact genises is not even a creation story. the bible is use to control and brainwash societies to keep them in line. so dont come to me with well the bible says this and that so were suppose to listen. most of the christianity beliefs come the egyptian beliefs anyways christianity came like 500 yrs later. and as far as roman catholics they r all about black magic. the pope is just like our president really its the ppl behind them who r pulling the strings. its just like a commercial u always someone trying to convince u to buy their product. so with that being said let nergal go! he knows exactly what he got himself into he is an entertainer thinking outside of the box to get ppl listening to the band he rips a bible=more or less fans thats that i mean if he sh**s on stage should we blog about it? behemoth fans r 100% behind u brotha the rest can just hate and blog about it.

# Jul 4, 2011 @ 3:40 AM ET | IP Logged Reveal posts originating from the same IP address
Anonymous Reader
59. nergal! writes:

of*
have*

# Jul 4, 2011 @ 3:56 AM ET | IP Logged Reveal posts originating from the same IP address
Whisper's avatar

Member

60. Whisper writes:

Nergal should just come to Canada and marry me.

# Jul 4, 2011 @ 7:20 PM ET | IP Logged Reveal posts originating from the same IP address
Anonymous Reader
61. duncan hills writes:

article: interesting
topic: polarising
nergal: bible-tearing
people backing up their viewpoints: tl;dr.

oh and metal: exhilarating.

# Jul 4, 2011 @ 11:05 PM ET | IP Logged Reveal posts originating from the same IP address
Anonymous Reader
62. Dehumanized writes:

All I can say is wow. I get that Bible Tearing is frowned upon where he is, but seriously the dude just beat cancer and is part of one of the gratest metal bands around, cut him some damn slack. So what if he tore a bible on stage, who gives a damn. Let Nergal be Nergal.

# Jul 5, 2011 @ 1:44 PM ET | IP Logged Reveal posts originating from the same IP address
Anonymous Reader
63. Fuzzypig writes:

I'll tell you why this is utter BS, take a look at any supernatural thriller TV show or movie, they often abuse the bible. In fact the X-Files episode Biogenesis a piece of metal 12 inches long tears a bible in two for flip's sake!! I don't see Chris Carter being hauled into court to account for it!

# Jul 6, 2011 @ 2:02 PM ET | IP Logged Reveal posts originating from the same IP address
Anonymous Reader
64. Billpower writes:

do people on here really have to write full essays? i'm too lazy to read any of it. free nergal!

# Jul 7, 2011 @ 9:00 PM ET | IP Logged Reveal posts originating from the same IP address
Blindgreed1's avatar

Member

65. Blindgreed1 writes:

^^^Some people actually have something to say.

# Jul 8, 2011 @ 1:16 PM ET | IP Logged Reveal posts originating from the same IP address
Anonymous Reader
66. Nergal Will Win writes:

Here you go, Drum_Junkie. This is why Nowak has such a comfortable environment to work in with his Committee and target Nergal, so much to work for (the church and state are financially entwined, and those in politics who scratch the church’s back get a nice job afterward) and the definitive connection between the state of Poland and the Catholic Church and the environment it creates. Nowak has been after Nergal for years, with the first suit in 2007, with Nergal himself filing a libel suit against Nowak back in 2008 (Nowak saying he would rather go to jail than apologize,) then back to court again over the same 2007 incident (Nowak claims Nergal wants to be the leader of all Satanists.) Other sources suggest that this activity of church or it’s toadies going after anyone who even SAY anything “bad” about the church in court is a regular thing in Poland, which is what they think Nergal did when he called them “the most murderous cult on the planet.” It doesn’t appear that others enjoy the same kind of privilege in the courts as the church. anti-Semitic remarks are not taken on the same grounds, for instance, though these comments are on Church radio, etc. A look at the role the Church plays in Poland shows that they are a financial parasite, criminal in some views of EU policy, criminal with rights unheard of in other states that allow severe financial advantages, with 25% of children hungry in Poland (the worst in the EU) and no money going to them, from the church, who gets the money from the state to run the schools, or from the state, who gives the money to the church. They line their pockets, export priests from Poland, and sit on a high horse not seen since the middle ages. Have a look at the circumstances by which the Concordant with the church was brought into Poland, and what a leech the church is financially, and there is plenty of reason to be p***ed. After reading more I don’t think it’s as simple as an election campaign. Politicians who scratch the Church’s back get nice positions when their day in electoral office is done. There is plenty to suck up for in Poland, where a church over privileged by the state is very wealthy and has considerable power and resources. Going after the apostates as always. Not that long ago, right wing legislators called for the enthronement of JC as the King of Poland. It also appears someone has been moving the goal posts in the courts when it comes to the church and others having the same privilage.

The Concordant with the Church:

http://www.concordatwatch.eu/showtopic.php?org_id=931&kb_header_id=33531
http://www.concordatwatch.eu/showtopic.php?org_id=931&kb_header_id=1331
http://www.iheu.org/node/1124
http://www.secularism.org.uk/secret-blacklist-of-polish-pupil.html
http://www.concordatwatch.eu/showtopic.php?org_id=931&kb_header_id=38561
http://blogs.wsj.com/emergingeurope/2010/08/03/the-cross-and-the-state/

# Jul 10, 2011 @ 1:47 PM ET | IP Logged Reveal posts originating from the same IP address
Drum_Junkie's avatar

Member

67. Drum_Junkie writes:

Nergal:

Thanks for taking the time to educate this spoiled American on the realities of the political landscape of Poland. Here in the states, the religious organizations don't hold as nearly as much sway in government. It's sad that the Catholic Church has had such a strong political arm. It goes against Biblical teachings and doesn't reflect the majority of Christian beliefs worldwide.

For example, within the Lutheran Church teachings, the Book of Concord specifically calls against the power and primacy of the Pope.
"bookofconcord.org/treatise.php#para39"
That was written over 475 years ago and is still an accepted belief of the Lutheran church today.
I just wanted to add that to say that the Catholic Church does not and should not in any way represent all Christians.

With the power that they command, it makes it pretty amazing that Nergal was successful previously, not only in defending himself, but also in the countersuit that followed. I'm sure if Nergal is found innocent again, he will counter again since he already has an existing precedent.

I also find it a little disappointing that Nergal's lyrics don't focus directly on the Catholic Church, but instead apply it to all Christianity. With the knowledge that he has, I would think he would realize that blanket statements are not as effective in bringing positive change as pinpoint criticism. Unless, of course, he does it just for the publicity.

# Jul 11, 2011 @ 10:35 AM ET | IP Logged Reveal posts originating from the same IP address
Anonymous Reader
68. Nergal Will Win writes:

I don’t know what to say, man. I can only talk as an outsider looking in. History is far more grim that the modern Lutheran Church. I think it will just take time. Life has been so Christian centric for so long that there are a lot of people expressing their discontent, and on the other side of that, unfortunately, a lot of other people wanting a level of religious control in people’s lives they can’t have anymore. People need to be able to choose. If denominations choose to get with the times, and not promote the poor add-ons of typical Christian fundamentalism (anti-Semitism, misogyny, homophobia, hitting kids, strange control over sex and marriage, etc) in the long term things might improve, but it will take a long time. I’m not sure so much it’s a subject to take up with Nergal, per se, but with your own denomination. It’s not the fault of pagans, etc, it’s the fault of a long history, and some rotten apples even today. What can your church do to rise above the stereotype and survive? I think it just takes time, and it’s definitely not by hammering the more secular critics, who I think would yield to a good reputation. It’s the more fundamentalist denominations that resist change, and at the same time gain more support by the day in conservative nations, so they resist changing in countries where there is pressure to do so. I’m not sure what would make Lutheranism stand out and have a reputation above the ills of greater Christianity, and be above some of it’s history. I know lots of letters have already been written. Sounds like public relations to me. I’m at a point right now where I think religion is something to do. What makes one place the place where someone chooses to do that activity more special than another? People can definitely have faith without a church. It’s how some people socialize. Being friendly enough that non Christian or other denominational friends can pop in, or take part in acknowledging a birth, death, marriage of a friend easily and without judgement helps. Being open to guests. Being asked to go to a church that has an “official” doctrine on you that ain’t so great isn’t really that fun, such as a RC church. Pressure to convert is always a pain in the ass, no matter what the source. Don’t care if someone’s trying to get me back to goddess and sit around naked, to sit on a cushion, or start paying my dues on Sundays or go to hell, it all gets old real fast. I know a little about the Lutheran church’s history. And it’s funny, throughout the stages of development, rationalization, appealing to emotion and mystical experience, returning again to a more traditional view and the sacraments and mass, etc, these are still things that attract certain people today. Being a place where critical thinking is allowed and being progressive as a result, fulfilling that want to express that part of the human condition spirituality and connect and socialize in that manner, having a structure to do that by. There is visual appeal, emotional appeal, and intellectual appeal. But it’s not for everyone. Getting mad at those that would not convert and do things his way was actually a fault in the original Luther, and those writing came back to haunt the church he founded. Maybe a lesson to be learned. But, in all, I think it just takes time. I’ve heard that in Europe there are atheists that go to church because they like to take part in community and volunteer work.

# Jul 12, 2011 @ 2:33 AM ET | IP Logged Reveal posts originating from the same IP address
Drum_Junkie's avatar

Member

69. Drum_Junkie writes:

NWW:
Thanks again for the well thought out reponses. (I feel like I'm getting smarter everyday lol)

I hope I haven't sounded like I'm expecting to change Nergals views. My first post (#11) was actually three parts.
1. Hoping to curb any swell in people blaming All Christians and the entire faith.
2. Expressing sadness with Nergal's actions (not condemning him for them) and sadness that he doesn't see the joy in Christ that I do.
3. Hoping also to curb any swell in Christians spreading hate by condemning Nergal and his fans.
Tying all three together by suggesting that people look at the actions of the individual and avoid judgement based upon stereotypes.

Thanks for the thoughts on religion. I haven't purposely been trying to push Lutheranism on anyone - it's just what I know best, and is the closest fit to my understanding of Christ. Lutheranism, like all religions, is imperfect, and Luther himself did go off the deep end as his health deteriorated and the persecution wore him down.
I agree completely that Christians shouldn't go out and force conversion. There is no acceptance of faith through force. In my understanding of the early Christian church (before the formation of the Roman Catholic Church), they didn't go out preaching fire brimstone and judgement. They lived their faith in joy of knowing the salvation they have, being a positive example, and sharing the love of Christ to others. Many have fallen away from that approach over the centuries. I personally try to live my faith by trying not to judge, but to be accepting - not damning,condemning or judging bad behavior, but trying to encourage positive behavior that helps everyone regardless of belief. That is the way I believe is right.

Going to church is both personal and communal to me. For me, it is a place that I can set aside worry and stress and instead, feel God's calming presence. I feel like I get a boost. Sharing that with the other members of my church I think is mutually beneficial as the feeling has a contagious effect. From a public relations view, that is what Christian churches should promote. That feeling of God's presence and love should be shared with the community. If only the RCC (and Westboro Baptist Church) understood that.

I can't make anyone believe, I can only share the gifts I have. It's up to the receivers to accept it or not. It cannot and should not be forced.

I probably should wrap this up now. I appreciate your thoughts and discussion.

# Jul 12, 2011 @ 10:27 AM ET | IP Logged Reveal posts originating from the same IP address
Valentine_no_more's avatar

Supporter

70. Valentine_no_more writes:

Freedom of religion or no religion should be for all countries. F them all for this crap.

# Jul 15, 2011 @ 12:36 PM ET | IP Logged Reveal posts originating from the same IP address

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