The Reunion Illusion: Five Reasons Why I Oppose A Sepultura Reunion
Band Photo: Sepultura (?)
Posting news about Sepultura is something that I always enjoy, because they're one of my absolute favourite bands, and dread because I know of the written onslaught that will follow with each and every article. For those of you who are unaware of why this may be, the diatribes that come with the articles and the background, permit me to shed some light on the subject.
Sepultura is a heavy metal band that formed in Belo Horizonte, Brazil in 1984 by brothers Max and Igor Cavalera and bass player Paulo Xisto Jr, as well as a guitarist called Jairo Guedes. After releasing an EP called, "Bestial Devastation" in 1985 and a full length, "Morbid Visions" in 1986, they split with Guedes and recruited guitarist Andreas Kisser. This lineup of the band released several more albums and became one of the most well known bands to ever come from Brazil. They gained worldwide recognition for their album, "Chaos A.D." in 1993, which is considered their best album by many fans, and expanded their reputation as metal superstars with their 1996 album, "Roots," becoming one of the few metal bands to find success in the 90s along with Pantera and Machine Head. At the end of 1996, Max Cavalera, the group's singer and rhythm guitarist, left the band as a result of the other members not wishing to extend the contract of their manager, who was/is also Max's wife. Following this, the band recruited a new singer in American born, Derrick Green. Since then, the band has received a huge backlash from fans because of the lineup change, with many calling on the band to change their name, especially since drummer Igor Cavalera left in 2006 and daily pleas to reunite the classic Cavalera/Cavalera/Kisser/Xisto lineup. For many people however, it seems they don't even know why they feel the urge to demand a reunion, except that they want to see the classic lineup live... maybe. In this article, I'm going to attempt to explain why I think a Sepultura reunion wouldn't work, why people are wrong to demand it and what the alternatives are.
1. Post-Max albums
Shockingly, in practically every thread where people shout about how much Sepultura are nothing more than a tribute band now and that they're not the same without Max Cavalera, they also confess that they have never even heard the material Sepultura have released since recruited Derrick Green. That alone tells me that these people aren't worth listening to. Some people claim they heard one song and didn't like it, which is only marginally better. Since Green has been a member of the band, they have clearly taken more chances and risks with their music, and become infinitely more creative. Nowhere is this is more evident than their last two albums, "Dante XXI" and "A-Lex" which are albums based on the books, "The Divine Comedy" and "A Clockwork Orange" respectively. On these two albums, the band incorporated orchestral sounds, dark ambient influences and more, all while retaining, and even embellishing their thrash metal sound and traditional hardcore influences. Regardless of how well these albums have been received, these two albums at least are two of the more interesting releases from the last decade. Of course, "Dante XXI" and "A-Lex" aren’t the only two albums the Green era of Sepultura have released, just the most recent. The first album with Green, "Against" was not a good start. It isn’t necessarily a bad album, but it pales in comparison to their older material, there is no argument there. They certainly picked up the pace with the next album, "Nation" and "Roorback" was arguably much better, though by no means an outstanding album. One of the things that make the Green albums so much more interesting, at least in my opinion, is that Green has more variety in his voice, belting out hardcore-esque screams and shouts one minute, and experimenting with much more melodic and clean singing the next, which donates a much richer flavour to the music than the straight from the throat aggression which Max produces.
2. Criticism of Soulfly
The last album Sepultura released with Max, "Roots," has had it’s fair share of criticism, despite being one of the most popular records in the 90's metal mainstream and featuring what many consider to be their most recognized song, "Roots Bloody Roots." Popularity aside, many Sepultura fans felt that the album’s focus on tribal music was something they didn’t particularly want to hear, preferring a more straight forward approach to metal. Max has since continued the tribal style since forming Soulfly and releasing their debut album in 1998. The tribal influence isn’t the only thing that has put long time fans off of Soulfly however, as they have also been accused of jumping on the nu metal bandwagon of the late 90’s/early 2000’s, a statement backed up by their inclusion of guest spots from Limp Bizkit’s, Fred Durst and Christian Machado of Ill Nino. Although the band has begun shedding their nu metal influence since 2005’s, "Dark Ages," their more recent output has still been subject to criticism, particularly their latest release, "Omen," which received a rating of only 1 out of 5 on this very website. Regardless of how many people feel about Soulfly, the general consensus is that their work has never matched the Max Cavalera era of Sepultura. With that in mind, does it not seem that were Max Cavalera still a part of Sepultura, the band would have taken the path Soulfly has and received a backlash from fans regardless?
3. Lyrical quality
Frankly, the quality of lyrics in heavy metal in general is one which has always been subject to debate, having been seen as both simple and pretentious, so this section will probably not demonstrate any examples of poetic brilliance. With that in mind, one cannot begin to fathom how those listeners who pay attention to the vocal tracks can continue to listen to the latest releases involving Max Cavalera and not become bored. It would seem that Max has given up on writing lyrics now, relying instead on memorable lines from old Sepultura work. An example of this can be heard on his guest appearance on the song, "War Is My Destiny" by rapper Ill Bill. Cavalera provides the chorus or "hook" of the song which simply consists of the lines, "Refuse/Resist. War is my destiny. Disorder unleashed. War is my destiny. Chaos A.D. War is my destiny. Under a pale grey sky. War is my destiny." Another example of what one can only perceive as laziness comes in the form of "Killing Inside," the Cavalera Conspiracy song which recently received the music video treatment. In the song, the title is repeated frequently along with the lines, "Look in my eyes" and "Everyone dies," the latter of which has also become a favourite lyrical point of Max’s as of late. When he isn’t using old lyrics or repeated the same ones over and over, Cavalera seems to enjoy saying "fuck" and "shit" as often as a child who’s just learned it’s first swear words. Of course, there’s nothing wrong with swearing in heavy or extreme music, but to use it constantly in music perhaps one of the laziest acts one can commit.
On the other hand, one need only looks at the group’s last two records, "Dante XXI" and "A-Lex," which, as I have previously noted, are based on the books, "The Divine Comedy" by Dante Alighieri and "A Clockwork Orange" by Anthony Burgess, to see that the lyrical ambitions of the band have gone far beyond the "fuck the system" approach of old. "A-Lex" in particular possesses some interesting phrases such as, "Trust is just a moment in a life which you should command" and paying tribute to the controversial novel with the utmost respect, following it’s story in a way that, while devoted to the book, remains an individual interpretation. The same can be said for "Dante XXI," in which the band take the epic poem and compare it to modern day situations and events, comparing the beasts to the United Nations amongst other things.
4. "It’s not Sepultura anymore! They should change the name!"
These two exclamations are bound to be seen whenever Sepultura are even mentioned. To an extent, the latter is one of the best arguments I’ve heard when it comes to the band in it’s current formation, but it’s still not a particularly strong one. Both of these statements are also entwined together, so rather than examine them separately, I shall fuse my rebuttals into one. An example I often bring up when fans demand a name change is Napalm Death. The current incarnation of the British grindcore legends contains no original members at all. The member of the band which has served for the longest time is bass player Shane Embury, who joined the group after they had released their first album, "Scum," which itself featured an almost completely different lineup on the B-side to the A. So since there are no original members left in Napalm Death, should they too change their name? They’re certainly not the same band they were when they began, as comparing, "Scum" to "Time Waits For No Slave" will demonstrate. But are they still Napalm Death? Of course they are, just with new staff.
The best response I’ve heard regarding changing their name or splitting up is that most people consider Max as the voice of Sepultura and it’s as synonymous with the band as Tom Warrior is to Celtic Frost. One would certainly agree unto a degree, as Celtic Frost without Tom Warrior would be a strange sight to behold indeed. That said, perhaps it would be best to examine how these two singers contributed to their most popular bands. Sepultura, for the most part has always been a collective, with the band members seemingly having as much of a say as the other, with the majority vote being the deciding factor, hence why the Cavalera brothers left. On the other hand, Tom Warrior has always been the lifeblood of Celtic Frost, much like how Dave Mustaine has always been the soul of Megadeth. They’ve kept their bands afloat and at times were the sole original members and bore the brunt of most or perhaps all criticism that’s come their way. Whereas, Max left the band and has arguably never soldiered the mainstream pressures the band has faced like Mustaine and Warrior did, though he has done so with Soulfly, even firing the whole lineup at one stage. So, by leaving Sepultura, and forcing his bandmates to decide whether or not to carry on, as well as other problems, he washed his hands of any and all responsibilities and while he may be the defining voice of Sepultura, like Ozzy was to Black Sabbath, he, like Ozzy, doesn't really have a right to say what the band should and should not do after he’s gone.
I’ll admit that when Igor Cavalera decided to leave the band in 2006, I too was conflicted as to whether or not Sepultura should continue under the same banner. But, after witnessing the band live in 2007 with new drummer Jean Dolabella, the group proved to me that they were still a ferocious and riveting live act, which at the end of the day, is one of the main things people want from a band. As I have said numerous times so far, I was also extremely impressed with "A-Lex" and with the drum work on the album in particular. Regardless of the band now featuring only one founding member, they can still write creative music and they are still passionate about what they do.
5. Were a reunion to happen
Let’s suppose for a minute that the Cavalera brothers did return to the band. The big question now is, "What next?" Presumably, the reunited "classic" lineup would begin by performing together either in their native Brazil or on the European festival circuit, with a North American tour to follow. After the tour, the band would probably say something along the lines of, "We’ve discussed a new album, but nothing is definite yet." Such a statement would prove to be either the deciding factor as to whether the band continue with the now reunited lineup, or spend years in limbo. Let’s pretend that the band decided not to record another album together, or that while working on the album, old arguments flared up again and they scrapped the material. What then? Max would certainly return to Soulfly, which he would never disband even if Sepultura did reunite with him, and Igor would probably go back to his DJ work, along with performing with Max in Cavalera Conspiracy when possible. This leaves Andreas and Paulo with the band once again. What would be the likelihood that Derrick Green, after fourteen years of loyal service to the band, would return to the fold, after being kicked out in favour of a nostalgia tour? In time perhaps, but certainly not immediately, it would be demeaning. So the now the band is faced with a dilemma, do they disband or begin searching for a new vocalist? If they didn’t disband when the Cavaleras left, it’s unlikely they’d split now, so they begin searching for a new singer. Once again, this could go either one of two ways, either they find someone quickly, or they struggle for a time trying to find the right person, a la Velvet Revolver. The botched reunion itself would probably have set the band back by at least two years, and now they don’t have a singer, so essentially, by forcing a reunion, they’ve killed the band, or at least done irreparable damage to it, exactly like Anthrax did when they reformed the "Among the Living" lineup, just because some fans wanted Belladonna back.
On the other hand, maybe the reunited group could work together and record an album. For the sake of argument, let’s call the record, "Reunited and it feels so good." They film a video for it, do the interviews etc. but they’d be haunted by the nagging question in the back of their minds that asks, "Is the album actually any good?" Let’s go with the nice idea that it’s a solid album, fans love it, the ensuing tour sells out, everybody’s happy. They continue to tour for a further eighteen months, performing at festivals, doing package tours with other metal veterans, Prong for example, and probably get booked to support big name acts like Iron Maiden and Ozzy Osbourne. Now the band are faced with another problem, the next album. This would probably take a while as Max would more likely than not go back to Soulfly, to continue making the music he might have been prevented from writing while in Sepultura, so for the sake of argument, let’s suppose this delays work on another album by eighteen months/two years. The follow up to the reunion album is very rarely met with the same fanfare as its predecessor. Fans have got what they wanted, they’ve bought the comeback album, they’ve seen the reunited lineup live, bought the t-shirt, what more could they want? So eventually the next album comes out. It does alright, but the excitement of the reunion has now worn off and fans aren’t so keen on making sure they go and see the band anymore, because they’ve already seen them. This pattern continues, and the band begins to slide in popularity, shuffled away like many other thrash bands, who reunited due to overwhelming demand from the fans, and then found themselves struggling to fill venues and then wondered if they should have let sleeping dogs lie.
I don’t know whether or not this article will change the minds of any Sepultura fans who refuse to give the Green era a try, frankly I doubt it. But my intention here is to explain that a group under a banner is just that, a group. A gathering of people, not one person. Many towns and cities have brass bands which perform at social, political and sporting events and this band will have likely have gone under the same name since their inception, with for many of them, would have been decades ago, so of course they don’t feature the original lineup but no-one expects them to change their name. Shock rock icon Alice Cooper has stated that when he decides to retire, he would like someone else to take his place, as he sees Alice Cooper as a character, not as an extension of himself. Thin Lizzy are still performing, despite the absence of iconic frontman Phil Lynott and a few years ago, Queen returned with Free vocalist Paul Rogers, who as great a singer as he is, cannot possibly be expected to live up to the standards of Freddie Mercury, who is constantly named as the greatest rock and roll showman of all time.
The name of a band is not a musician’s sole identity, and arguably this can be said in reverse. Sepultura are a band, not a man or a duo. They are still writing creative music, taking risks and impressing the fans who go and see them perform live. Above anything else, musicians are artists. While they owe their success to their fans, they also owe themselves for writing the material in the first place. It wouldn’t be right to demand that Van Gogh painted nothing but Sunflowers or that George Orwell only wrote about politics being represented through animals, so it isn’t fair that we, as fans, think that we know who should be in a band and how they should write their music. If fans had their way all the time, Black Sabbath would never have released, "Heaven & Hell," which stands as one of the best albums of their career. This year they are celebrating their 27th anniversary as a group, so the question is, is it really fair to demand that a band risk a legacy of nearly three decades just so that fans can feel an air of nostalgia?
Ollie Hynes has been a writer for Metal Underground.com since 2007 and a metal fan since 2001, going as far as to travel to other countries and continents for metal gigs.
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69 Comments on "Sepultura: The Reunion Illusion"
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"But my intention here is to explain that a group under a banner is just that, a group. A gathering of people, not one person"
We understand this, but sometimes the new gathering of people do not have the same energy as the original gathering. And this lack of energy to some is the nail in the coffin!
"Is it really fair to demand that a band risk a legacy of nearly three decades just so that fans can feel an air of nostalgia?"
It is not demanding to feel an air of nostalgia, it is wanting to see a specific line-up of musicians who made some of the greatest music (whichever genre the band is) that fans of that band have heard. I have said I would love to see (Max/Igor) Sepultura re-unite, but agree with some of your points about past events and how it could make the future a bit uneasy.
Nice to know it was read lol. I think it is demanding to constantly call for a reunion. They've got their own projects that they want to work on and as I said, they're artists, their main goal is to create music that ultimately satisfies them, so it's unfair that they should put aside something they care about to please other people. It'd be like if you stopped bashing Metallica because everyone asked you too. Bashing Metallica is something that you have down to an artform and you seem to genuinly feel that you're right about what you say. It's the same thing essentially, why give up something you're passionate about just because people keep asking you to?
As far as energy goes, they've made five albums since Max left, not including the live album/DVD and the new album which will be released this Summer. On top of that, they've got a massive North American tour coming up, they frequently tour Europe, both headlining and on the festival circuit and they seem to waste no time when it comes to engrossing themselves in a new album, so I'd say they still have plenty of energy. In an interview posted just yesterday, Andreas said that even if they were to reunite, the chemistry he and Max had wouldn't be there anymore because they're different people now and Igor has said that as far as he's concerned, Cavalera Conspiracy is the real reunion, which to an extent he's right about, just that it's under a different name.
well great piece oz, and i can relate to the passion you have for sepultura especially pre green...
to me, the original sepultura is part of the big 4, if they were still reunited they"d be part of those shows, i dont have any anamosity towards green or really any of the band mates per say on both sides of the ball, i do feel its tragic that the original lineup disbanded and disapointed that max would have his wife involved in the affairs of his band, get married but cut ties business wise because in most cases, doing business with your wife or girlfriend spells doom in one way or the other...i blame max for the initial breakup of sepultura, but im still a huge fan of his music , his lyrics and his spiritual connection to his music...when the reunion talks/rumors started i blamed paulo or andress, but reality is, if there is gonna be a sepultura reunion, ever, max needs to partner with another manager with sepultura business...max has incinuated that the guys only care about money, but i really do think its gloria, and only gloria...
i really see both sides, im a max supporter, i have always but this is the one thing i wish he would change or atleast look at in attempts to reunite....i think the world would love to see a reunion, i know i would..
i saw sepultura with green in 04 i believe with full blown chaos and it just wasnt the same for me, and since then, i havent even given the current sepultura a chance...cavalerra conspiracy right now has that old fire/ same inspiration sepultura did back in the day, hell of alot more than soulfly does...id like to see CC keep going and scrap fly, because itll be the closest thing to a reunion that us orginal sepultura fans will ever get..
Nice article Oz, well done!
My two cents: I saw Green Sepultura in '99 open for Slayer/Slipknot and it was not well received at all. People were walking to the beer lines in droves. I saw Soulfly open for Morbid Angel in 2005 and they tore the roof off the place. I would like to see the original Sepultura, I think it would be a good show. A few years back it was rumored they were going to do Gigantour and I was pretty bummed when it didn't happen. I gave up hope after that disappointment.
Look, Black Sabbath is Ozzy and Heaven and Hell is with DIO. It came a bit later, but I think that fits better. SEPULTURA would have easily have been in my 'Big Four', and the SEPULTURA I am referring to is MAX CAVALERA SEPULTURA.
SEPULTURA should have changed their name and paid their dues. I have tried the newer stuff, and as good as it may be, it isn't SEPULTURA without that voice and it bugs me, it doesn't mean that it is right or wrong.
They are brilliant musicians, but it will always fail in my eyes with that name. Sad but True.
I think Andreas is great, I'm glad he gets to play with Anthrax at a big four show but if they were adding to the lineup, I'd rather see the CAVALERA's there.
I actually really can't see the point of Max Cavalera these days.
Very limited vocally. Very limited guitarist. Extremely poor lyricist. The response Soulfly has alwas gotten has always surprised me as they're a below average band that seems to get a good response purely due to the presence of Max.
Same with Cavalera Conspiracy... yes it features the Cavalera brothers, but it's all such a blunt rehashing of past glories, in both riff terms and lyical ones.
Sepultura (with Green) have failed to capitalise on their renewed vigour, as although the man is a superior vocalist and musician, the material they have written for the Gree-era has been largely lacking.
Having seen them live several times with Green though I can attest that they really look to be enjoying themselves, love playing both the new and old songs, and that Green is a better live presence than Max is with Soulfly.
On the plus side for them, Dante XXI was a brilliant album and one I go back to frequently. A-Lex was similarly great in places, but hamstrung by its concept which seemed stretched and a little too big for the record. I have high hopes for the next record though, Andreas continues to be a riff-machine and Jean Dolabella has demonstrated his skills several times now!
On a separate point... I'm really tired of Max's desperation in constantly contradicting himself over the issue of "the reunion" - look back over his old interviews and he has effectively blamed everyone and everything else (but never himself) at different times, contradicting his previous statements time and time again and putting words in people's mouths which have been repeatedly refuted and which, often, don't even make sense. Sigh.
I've never really been into Sepultura, but I think both versions of the band are good. This article was a really good read, thanks Diamond Oz.
I didn't know you were writing a book about British metal Diamond. That's great to hear, I'd love to read that. I hope Judas Priest is mentioned a lot in it haha.
Haha, I'm glad you enjoyed it ZMA! Yeah the book has been kinda put on the back burner for now, I've been working on it for ages but it's a different matter actually finishing it and stuff. As soon as it's done I'll let you know though, and yes, there will be lots of Priest :P
Yea Diamond I did, it was a great read and now I know tons more about this band then I ever did.
I hope to one day get a job doin' stuff like this workin' for a metal site writing stuff like this and doin' reviews. It's a great passion.
That's good to hear though. I hope you come into some extra time so you can work on it more and finish it up, cause I'm definitely looking foward to reading it. I'm a die-hard Priest fan. I own all their albums including most of their side projects so that's gonna be great to get my hands on.
Oz, I think this is the best thing you've written, just a really well put together piece. Great discussion to by everyone! Here's my two cents:
For one I think the reason I think fans complain about wanting a reunion, old Sep, name change etc. isn't maybe so much about actually wanting it to happen as so much an expression of frustration that a band that produced such crushing, decimating albums like "Remains" and "Arise" is not around any more and they'll never experience them live. They know it'll never happen and it's probably for the best, but the need to exhalt old Sep is still there.
Secondly I disagree about Max's lyrics. While there are painful jump-da-f***-isms in his new stuff (oh and he's the origin of the term jumpdaf***up...), I've always thought the charm of Max's lyrics was his repetition, straight forward brute and broken english charm. I much prefer Max's primal mantras to bookworm references - this is f***ing metal mate!
Once again great read.
I really hate the "They should change the name" bit, especially when it's just one band member like the vocalist (granted, more have left Sepultura now, but first, it was just Max and we heard the cries). See Black Sabbath and Alice In Chains for reasons that argument sucks.
I think there are plenty of valid points in the article.
As much as I am part of the "no Max, no Sepultura" movement, I don't really see Max back in Sepultura either, or even if they did reunite with the original line-up, I don't think we'd have the good old Sepultura back.
Overall, I think the 'original' Sepultura ran it's course and simply came to it's end with Roots. Kinda went the full circle from a raw punky hardcore band to the "new lords of metal" with Chaos AD and Roots.
Well, Sepultura does still exist, the 2nd version does. I don't mind them, but I just cannot get into Greens vocals.
I think the old Sepultura sound has survived nicely by Andreas and Paulo, whether you like the new Sepultura is a matter of taste. And the new Sepultura is not for me, unfortunately.
Hey Diamond OZ, Loved the article. I couldn't agree more with you and reading this has been a breath of fresh air because I thought I was the only one with that opinion.
I've seen Sepultura live here in Brazil several times, and I can say that Dollabella has brought new energy to the band and they are better off w/out Iggor as they have been better off w/out Max.
I had never seen Sepultura live with Max, so I could never compare with certainty which line up was better, I love both eras, and I agree that the latest two albums of Sepultura are much better than a lot of albums from the Max era.
I recently saw Cavalera Conspiracy opening act for Iron Maiden here in Sao Paulo, and what I took from that is that Max is just a child with a guitar. He's limited as a vocalist, limited as a showman, limited as frontman. CC's music did not bring any kind of excitement live, whereas Sepultura as a main act or as an opening act, can bring the house down, their energy is just so much better and their music is so much better.
As Andy Synn said above: "I actually really can't see the point of Max Cavalera these days." - Just doesn't make much sense a guys just curse and yell. Sepultura has substance, something that Max doesn't have.
Cheers! Great article, hope some people have gone listen DANTE XXI and A-Lex by now.
Brilliant article, i enjoyed it mainly cause i agree with everything in it!! ive seen Sepultura 3 times ( with igor,roy and jean on drums ) and they are a brilliant live band,no doubt about that. Ive seen Soulfy once on the Dark Ages tour, not brilliant but i wanted to see Max live at least once. The thing i respect most about Green era Seps is that they never jumped on any bandwagon or style that was popular at the time. Against was released in 1998, at the hight of nu metal, Songs 'liked Drowned Out' and 'Boycott' were fairly heavy to what machine head were about to turn into with the burning red and max's soulfly st. Max only started to play heavy thrash inspired music in 05 when it became popular again. His lyrics have become a joke,its just random words and live he barley touches his 4 string guitar. Why would anyone want him back, its 2011 not 1991. Seps last 2 releases have been brilliant, fans should give the band a go and forget the collective name of 4 people who create good music!!
excellent article much appreciated
when there was a post about Sepultura's current dates
i posted a comment and i felt like a fool b/c it was like 17 against to my 1 for the tour
and i'll say it again the cities that get a Sepultura stop are true metal cities and i'm somewhat surprised that NO didn't get a stop
have seen more support in MU recently for current Sepultura
imo Green era Sepultura has always been more creative than Soulfly
Soulfly has always struck me as a bit hack
Cavalera Conspiracy however is a favorite of mine and about even with current Sepultura in terms of quality
although i always seem to be going back to A-Lex def a grower
the new CC album is worth your time
there is no need for a reunion (although we all know there will be one) as long as Sepultura and CC release quality music
Beneath the Remains is Sepultura's best album would like a remaster if there isn't already 1
very comparable to Justice
Wow! very well done, Oz....actually glad I didn't see this until now, as I enjoyed and appreciate the dialog from everyone
Sepultura was initially hard for me to get into back in the olden times, because I couldn't get past the 'neaderthal' lyrics...I couldn't stand em! Took a while to get past that, as I really liked the music, and wanted to embrace the whole package
Funny how things change, as I now look back at those primitive words with fondness and preference, as Cynic said, the "primal mantras...broken english charm" have a timelessly endearing quality about them
and I do like Roots for what it is...not a huge fan of the 'Fly or Max-less 'Tura, but things are as they are, and artists should and will pursue the avenues that they feel currently suits their self expression...unless some such happens to be anhy kind of a 'corporate puppet project' of course ;)
Anyway, great stuff from most everybody! Cheers'
"I really hate the "They should change the name" bit, especially when it's just one band member like the vocalist (granted, more have left Sepultura now, but first, it was just Max and we heard the cries). See Black Sabbath and Alice In Chains for reasons that argument sucks."
With all due repect, Black Sabbath did change their name, and how did they make out after compared to the first 2 Ozzy albums?
Alice in Chains does not belong anywhere in this conversation, really.
Led Zeppelin folded after the death of their drummer, each band is different in circumstance.
Tim the Ripper Owens calling them Judas Priest??? lol
Blayze Bailey calling themselves Iron Maiden, there is a big difference, HUUUGGGGEEEEE!
MAX CAVALERA is why SEPULTURA rose to such heights, his voice, his passion, his charisma, he named the band, and if anyone of them were to enter the rock and roll hall of fame, it should be him!
He has done many cool collaborations with other artists since leaving SEPULTURA, and despite leaving SEPULTURA went on to make several albums "without the name", just his own.
Let's see those others do the same without the great name of SEPULTURA, possible yes, probable no, where would they be?
MAX CAVELERA formed SEPULTURA, SOULFLY, and CAVALERA CONSPIRACY for metal.
I called you a moron because you completely missed the mark stating AIC doesn't belong in the argument. They ABSOLUTELY do belong. As does AC/DC and Van Halen. All are perfect examples of bands who switched personell and kept the name successfully. They shouldn't change the name unless THEY feel it is necessary, not because some whiney little fanboi can't get a grip on the fact that it's their art and their choice for marketing their art.
Yea we should agree actually lmao. Because Black Sabbath did change their name like 30 years after Ozzy left to Heaven And Hell. I'd think they did pretty damn good considering when Heaven and Hell came out it was one of their biggest selling albums ever. One of them not the highest but still.
And Alice In Chains is doing pretty well for themselves too.
But it's really whatever.
ZMA: Exactly, I also have issues with giving Sharon Ozbourne credit for ANYTHING, but she's the one that insisted the sabbs change the name if Ozzy wasn't in the band AFTER the last reunion. I'm just glad they changed the name to Black Sabbath comming out of the gate. Could you imagine discussing the last Earth reunion? LMFAO!
"Yea we should agree actually lmao"
haha, conform or be cast out! lmao
I agree HEAVEN and HELL was awesome, I think the name fits better with DIO too, then to call it Black Sabbath. I'm comparing OZZY's first couple solo efforts to Black Sabbath's first couple albums without OZZY.
Van Halen is Eddie VAN HALEN's band!!!! And to me, David Lee Roth is the best Van Halen!
AC/DC suffered a death, Bon Scott was a big fan of Brian's and is the only band that you listed that succeeded after properly. But I still like the Bon Scott era better if I had to choose!
ALICE IN CHAINS?????
My point is bands have different circumstances and to say one is ok because Alice and Chains did it, is ridiculous.
^^^Bullsh!t. VH sold more albums with SH behind the mic. I'd say that's "succeeding properly". Check your facts, then check yourself. I think you'll find that you are a moron as I originally stated. Looking above I don't see anyone who stated "it's okay because AIC did it". If you're going to attempt to debate here, I suggest you do your homework. ALICE IN CHAINS??? Yeah, they suffered a death and Layne and Jerry were big fans of William's. Sound familiar moron? Here's the REAL point: In your own words "My point is bands have different circumstances and to say one is ok because Alice and Chains did it, is ridiculous". You've stated that you think Sepultura should change their name like Black Sabbath did (which again was 30 years later). Now, by your own admission YOU are rediculous thereby proving beyond the shaddow of a doubt that you sir... Are a moron. Good day...
No Souls that's not it at all. (Plus I'd like to point out if everyone agreed on everything there'd be no problems and no one to cast out.) Your points just don't seem valid to me.
So many bands that have lost singers or any other band members have forged on with the same name and been massively successful. It was cool that they changed there name since they reunited to do new material and they probably wanted a fresh start. And it worked for me at least because I love The Devil You Know.
Haha.....Earth reunion. Yea I'm with you Blindgreed. To me it doesn't really matter if they change there name. Plus I think after all these years, this Sepultura lineup has solidified itself without him weather it's the same band or not. But like I said before it's whatever.
^^ dude, I said "IMO" Van Halen was better with Roth. No bullsh** there, that is my opinion. :) and VAN HALEN is the band of a guitar player, it always his band. Again no bullsh**.
your funny as hell with your namecalling, lol.
Van Hagar?? geeesh
This is the only thing I believe to be true that you said...
"Exactly, I also have issues"
Anyway, I have to give you a "cool story bro!"
that's just it ZMA, they don't have to seem valid to you, they are my opinions of music, you don't have to agree, and I find it useless to call people names because they differ in opinion.
Again, it's not right or wrong, it is how I feel as a fan.
I also think because they changed their name (for a fresh start as you say) made the world of difference and I embraced the album a lot better and ultimately is better business. There is no bitterness.
^^^Alex may have a thing or two to say about VH being Eddie's band there Corky (time to switch it up and call you retard). Also, considering you can't even follow your own thought process let me remind you: "AC/DC suffered a death, Bon Scott was a big fan of Brian's and is THE ONLY BAND THAT YOU LISTED THAT SUCCEEDED AFTER PROPERLY." I put your statement in caps since you have this apparent inability to remember what you posted above. Welcome to the mighty MU, now get the fvck out of my thread.
Good informative piece Oz. I Think a Sepultura reunion would be great for nostalgia only. I Missed them back in the 90s and have to admit I wouldn't mind seeing them in their original glory. I actually enjoy their classic stuff like Arise @ Beneath The Remains more now than back then. Will also have to check out A Lex @ Dante. I bought Against back when it came out and didn't care for it. Probably influenced my reasons for not checking any Sep material since
R Tenn just gave me an interesting idea. You don't actually have to do a whole tour, they could do a few one-off shows with the original lineup. Or even just one. I guarantee that show will sell out, and then they can just go back to doin' their own sh!t.
Yea Souls OfMetal I understand what you're sayin' I just don't get it. But that's why I say it's whatever. I'm not gettin' into the whole name callin' thing. But yea I'm sure if it had been a Sabbath album it would've been received differently then it did, which isn't a bad thing.
Every band works stuff out in their own way. ACDC, Alice In Chains, Black Sabbath, Sepultura, Van Halen and a bunch of other bands forged on with their music under the same name and still had success. Other bands have changed their name.
And other bands like Led Zeppelin and Nirvana (cause I can't think of others at the moment) folded after loosing members and broke up. It's all how people wanna handle it.
Wow what an article! Amazing job!
Never ever really liked this band though, not before or after Max.
And speaking of max, he's in Soulfly, Cavalera Conspiracy, and now apparently Max Cavalera and Greg Puciato are working on 15 'Dark' songs...
NP: Beelzeboss - Tenacious D
^^yeah, I'm looking forward to that, they are hinting it's like a "Nailbomb" project.
Point Blank is awesome!
@ZMA whenever somebody says "we all 'should' agree" it reminds me of the Rush lyric I quoted. If we all agreed on everything it would be like a communist society, or something to that affect. There is so much metal out there, preferences differ, we all don't have to agree.
I'd rather listen to Sammy with Montrose and even Chickenfoot rather than VH.
Having met your states gov. B Richardson HR I can say I was pretty impressed by him. Gotta remember other than the Iowa caucuses NH plays a huge factor in who gets elected for Prez. In this country. That being said I'm throwing my support to a Hell Rat prez run in 2012. By the way I got a Slick Willie autographed baseball.
ol billy boy eh? he's one of my uncle's buddies....he was on billy's Environmental Improvement Board until new gov susie M swooped into office and sh!tcanned the entire panel
nah, my own politicking is pretty damn small time...and judging by the results of our recently concluded legislative session, i ain't very good at it :)
Fought long and hard against a hair-brained piece of sh!t bill (SB 196) which susie signed an bizzarrely ammended version of into law yesterday morning, right before her deadline....my own bill (SB 338 Sen. W Sharer sponsor) passed through everything with flying colors, before keeling over at the Finance Committee due to a time shortage...will get that thing passed via special session later this year where there won't be a million stupid items on the menu....have hade success taking this route in the passed
to be honest, i fvckin HATE politics, though i rather reluctantly admit to coming from a long line of politicos
i will always continue to fight for what i believe in, but when it comes to big time politics....well, i don't believe in much :)
NP---Vengeance is Mine---Alive in Athens
Here in the Live free or Die HR were used to politicians passing through. Met B Richardson when he stumped at a little diner where I have breakfast after work in the AM. Good man; I thought him to be quite presidential. Our current Prez and ol Hillary made plenty of stops here also. How did a Sepultura thread turn political?
Hear ya dictator HR. No more politics! Oz wrote a pretty thought invoking piece on Sepultura here. Sorry to f*** up his thread with my ramblings. Thinking Sepultura could do a classic reunion like ATG and back to business with their respective bands. No new material needed.
would love to see it brother R! just like that 'Gates reunion we saw a couple years ago...ALL FVCKIN TIME!!
however, i don't forsee the convoluted POLITICS :) in the greater sepultura family allowing for it anytime soon
and if you were rambling, what the fvck was i doing???endlessly chatter-yapping, eh!! :)
Now Swilling----Limey Ba$$hole Pale Ale
Hear ya HR. Oz laid out pros @ cons of Sepultura situation quite well. I'm p***ed because I missed em back in the day. Would love to see a reunion;but it probably won't happen. Now drinking the Rockies finest... Ha love Newcastle but only to spoil myself with! Bass? Goes good with Arthurs finest in a black and tan. sh** I'm on a budget;I'd love to drink Newcastle exclusively. NP: Converge ;Jane Doe album! New England !
never seen em either...CRAP!!
are ya drinkin my beloved piss of the rockies?? the one and only Banquet?? they grow the hops for that lovely lager around my mama's hometown of Loveland CO...had my first taste of a long neck when I was 5! my pops and uncle drank coors exclusively until they both pvssied out and moved on to c0ck-in-tails...them Yella Jackets will always have a special place in my heart :)
So cheers brother! And I actually have a couple Limey Newkie Browns in the fridge as well, will raise one in hearty cheers to you, after i finish knocking off this Bassholio in Oz' honor!
speaking of beer budgets, trying to get a fvcking grip on mine!...i'm thinking of going the home brew route, gotta couple bros that are kickin out some quality concoctions...and as another Bill once said: "Blessing of your heart, you brew good Ale!"---Shakespeare
Hah HR Silver Bullet! 18 bucks a 30 pack! Drinking that Rockie Mnt sh** for years! Smooth;cheap;gets my drunk on! Trust me ;I love the Newcastle;the Guinnesses ; and Becks. But I drink the Coors because its cheap and smooth! Love the Canucks lager too. Labatts@ Molson. If I can get it on sale I drink it!
Thinking ol ZMA got us so horribly off topic by calling you a world leader HR. We've gotten way off topic here with political talk@ beer talk. Beats the atypical this band or that band sucks discussions I tend to read. So oh well. So I like my beer and I got my opinions...
Ha HR ;thinking your native neighbor would get a kick outta me! I even drink the sister brew of the Bullet! Keystone Light! Good cheap drunk! 14 bucks a 30! Laugh all u want. Gotta find some of that Crown. Love me some Swedish DM! NP: Deftones:White Pony album. Seeing em in Hampton Beach NH in early May !
I think of Sepultura as being like China and Cavalera Conspiracy as being like Taiwan. Either Cavalera Conspiracy are the real Sepultura or they're just a usurper trying to steal from Sepultura's achivements. Likewise, Sepultura are either the same band in name only or the continuation of a great band's legacy. Only one is the true successor and that'll always be open to interpretation.
Man, that really was a good article, even if I didn't agree with a lot of it. Many of your points were spot on, but you definitely come off as a Max-hater. You need to give the man credit for who he is as a musician. He does not set out to write lyrics that are Shakepearian.
The repetition in his lyrics are what made his songs so popular. It's what the people want to sign along to in their cars; what the crowds want to sign along to in the arenas. For those of you saying that Max has no live stage presence, you are crazy. Soulfly & CC put on some of the best live shows around. Their fans are some of the most dedicated. Just pull up a live song from any EU or South American country and you'll see the love for Max, regardless of the band.
Plus, when you think metal shows, you think of four dudes standing around, throwing their heads around and straight up jamming: Machine Head, Pantera, Metallica, Slayer, etc. If you want people dancing around, go see Britney Spears or Katy Perry. It's all about the crowd and MAx fires them up.
I love how you cited his repetitious lyrics in Ill Bill's "War is My Destiny." It's the chorus, it is supposed to be repetitious. It's catchy. It's a sick song and even better video. If you haven't seen it, get to YouTube ASAP.
On that note, Max has been a featured guest in so many other songs: Deftones, Probot, Ill Bill, etc. and he has enlisted so many artists in his songs: Chino, Prong dude, Dillinger Escape Plan, Slayer, Fred Durst... alright, that was a mistake.
How many artists are crying for this new Green dude to be in their songs? I have nothing against the new Sepultura, it's just not for me and you can't put both bands in the same sentence. Just like Guns n' Roses carrying on as GNR. Kind of bizarre.
Max is a polarizing frontman, so it doesn't surprise me to see both sides coming out here. Regardless, Oz, I think your wrote a very solid article, just a little biased in my opinion.
And, 1 of 5 stars for Omen? That's just downright ludicrous.
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I'll throw my 2 cents in.
Sepultura turned into a joke with Roots.
Max dying his hair pink. UUGH.
And sorry Chaos AD was were EVERYTHING started going down hill.
Sep had two classics. "Remains" and "Arise".
And yes I bought the first two Sep albums with Green and they both sucked.
Same with Soul Fly.
They peaked with those two previously mentioned albums and a reunion won't bring back the magic, sorry.
Some bands can recapture the magic...Samael, Fear Factory....some can't.
Too much ego, not enough passion.
Just enjoy these groups for what they DID do for the metal community.
There's too much good music coming out now to keep dwelling on what "could" be but probably never will be.